$2 NLHE Full Ring: Tournament player wondering if i donked on this hand...

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MaDaMan

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Usually i play tournaments or sit n go's, i am not sure if i played this correctly.

I am SB with [Jd Jc]. 1 limper, HJ min-raises, i 3 bet to 5BB( or 2.5 his raise).He calls.

*** FLOP *** [3c Ts Tc]

I bet half the pot, thinking that he would not have come in with A 10 or K 10, so my fish hooks might be good.

He raises me 5x my raise. At this point i was thinking QQ, KK, AA or maybe AQ AK(one of these too seemed more likely).

At this point i have no idea what i was facing. The reraise seemed huge and i thought that he might want to buy the pot, i flat called.

*** TURN *** [3c Ts Tc] [2c]

He fires 50 more cents. I decided to go all in because i felt like he was trying to bully me out of the pot.

*** RIVER *** [3c Ts Tc 2c] [Qc]

Q falls on the river. He turns cards over AQ....
What i failed to see was that there was a flush draw on the table and the queen the fell gave me the flush....

I won it,but because everything is so cut and dry in cash games, i would like to know where did i go wrong and how should i have went at it.

I had 2 gut feelings
1. he seemed to be a reg( not sure because i just made transition to PS)
2. The reraise for 5x on the flop seemed too much.

I would like to hear your opinions on how i should have played it. I don't know how to explain it,but when it comes to big pots in cash games, i get overwhelmed. In a tournament game, i would have based decision on previous info on him. This was my 2nd hand at that table since i sat down and his first. Zero information from both of us.

Should i have folded on the flop?
He had a 12% chance of hitting the river. Did i do well to shove the turn knowing that the table was too dry for him to have hit it?
 
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MaDaMan

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Can anyone tell me if i played this right?
 
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themosthigh

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First learn to use to hand history converter. It will make the post easier for people to read and is most likely why you haven't received a response. Pots stack sizes too as they are very important. Also don't post results.

I don't usually 3bet jacks from the blinds. If I'm gonna do it though I'm going much more than 2.5x. Being OOP I'm bumping it up to 4x atleast. More if others had called.

Good cbet but again I'm betting more than 1/2 pot. When villain raises 5x it's time to get worried(disregard the results of this hand). In 3bet pots peoples ranges are pretty polarized. Many will flat with hands like TT/ JJ/QQ, AK/AQ. Personally I'm tossing my hand when I get check raised on the flop.

I have no clue about stack sizes and how big his turn bet is with regards to the pot, stacks, etc. "I decided to go all in because i felt like he was trying to bully me out of the pot." Be careful with this. When you bet you do it for 2 reasons. Value from worse or as a bluff. Players at these levels usually play their hands face up and when they start getting aggressive they usually have it. With that said the turn is a fold. Shoving over his bet is nothing but spew. You beat pairs 44-99
and bluffs.
 
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First learn to use to hand history converter. It will make the post easier for people to read and is most likely why you haven't received a response. Pots stack sizes too as they are very important. Also don't post results.

I don't usually 3bet jacks from the blinds. If I'm gonna do it though I'm going much more than 2.5x. Being OOP I'm bumping it up to 4x atleast. More if others had called.

Good cbet but again I'm betting more than 1/2 pot. When villain raises 5x it's time to get worried(disregard the results of this hand). In 3bet pots peoples ranges are pretty polarized. Many will flat with hands like TT/ JJ/QQ, AK/AQ. Personally I'm tossing my hand when I get check raised on the flop.

I have no clue about stack sizes and how big his turn bet is with regards to the pot, stacks, etc. "I decided to go all in because i felt like he was trying to bully me out of the pot." Be careful with this. When you bet you do it for 2 reasons. Value from worse or as a bluff. Players at these levels usually play their hands face up and when they start getting aggressive they usually have it. With that said the turn is a fold. Shoving over his bet is nothing but spew. You beat pairs 44-99
and bluffs.

I saw that it's a common move to not show results. Could you tell me why?
As i have learned,the only hand i could beat are worse pocket pairs or maniacs bluffing.

At the same time,when i had QQ and someone donked on me in a similar setup, he had JJ and he turned the J...

I think he had 3$ and i had 2$(it was the 3rd hand for me and 1st for him).


So generally in moments like these when i get checkraised(despite the dry flop) it's better to fold and save money?
 
vinylspiros

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I saw that it's a common move to not show results. Could you tell me why?
As i have learned,the only hand i could beat are worse pocket pairs or maniacs bluffing.

At the same time,when i had QQ and someone donked on me in a similar setup, he had JJ and he turned the J...

I think he had 3$ and i had 2$(it was the 3rd hand for me and 1st for him).


So generally in moments like these when i get checkraised(despite the dry flop) it's better to fold and save money?

Because by not showing results, you get more of an objective opinion. whereas,if you show the results it will influence peoples opinion about which is the best play in this situation. Cause if we know what villain has then its easy to give any opinion but it will not be the right one. it will be based on what we already know.
Just hide the results so that you can get a more objective( which is the right play opinion)

In my opinion since you are out of position here. donking the flop is not optimum play.sometimes it is,but i preffer check/raising here. first of all he wont be able to go over the top with air and secondly, it slows him down on the turn, if he has nothing.This is where you can take it down assuming a scare card or a card that he has doesnt show up.

IMO thats the best line here.

generally when you have an overpair on such a dry flop, your good the majority of the time.

the reason i dont like the half size pot bet on the flop is because u usually fold out worst hands and dont allow them to hang themselves for at least one street.
 
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Because by not showing results, you get more of an objective opinion. whereas,if you show the results it will influence peoples opinion about which is the best play in this situation. Cause if we know what villain has then its easy to give any opinion but it will not be the right one. it will be based on what we already know.
Just hide the results so that you can get a more objective( which is the right play opinion)

In my opinion since you are out of position here. donking the flop is not optimum play.sometimes it is,but i preffer check/raising here. first of all he wont be able to go over the top with air and secondly, it slows him down on the turn, if he has nothing.This is where you can take it down assuming a scare card or a card that he has doesnt show up.

IMO thats the best line here.

generally when you have an overpair on such a dry flop, your good the majority of the time.

the reason i dont like the half size pot bet on the flop is because u usually fold out worst hands and dont allow them to hang themselves for at least one street.

Thank you for the answer.
Usually i fire off the c-bet because i would like to win the pot right then and there. A 1/2 pot bet would mean that i have something. Check-call could be an option,but i pretty much fire off the c-bet to show strength. If i don't bet i presume that he will think i am weak. Also i did not want him to get a free card and improve .

C-bet was fired for these reasons:

1.Show power
2.Not give him a free card which could have been an overcard(if i checked and he didn't raise so i could check/raise it would have been and easy free card for him)
3.Since i was the aggressor, if i end up check calling it might be perceived as me missing the flop completely and i would only be subjected to more abuse on the turn.

If i were to hear this objectively. My main mistakes were 3 bet pre-flop, calling the check-raise.

The 3 bet made him pot comitted. Check raise could have meant QQ KK AA( even though the fact that he didn't reraise me on the flop once more pretty much narrowed the chances of that).
 
vinylspiros

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Thank you for the answer.
Usually i fire off the c-bet because i would like to win the pot right then and there. A 1/2 pot bet would mean that i have something. Check-call could be an option,but i pretty much fire off the c-bet to show strength. If i don't bet i presume that he will think i am weak. Also i did not want him to get a free card and improve .

C-bet was fired for these reasons:

1.Show power
2.Not give him a free card which could have been an overcard(if i checked and he didn't raise so i could check/raise it would have been and easy free card for him)
3.Since i was the aggressor, if i end up check calling it might be perceived as me missing the flop completely and i would only be subjected to more abuse on the turn.

If i were to hear this objectively. My main mistakes were 3 bet pre-flop, calling the check-raise.

The 3 bet made him pot comitted. Check raise could have meant QQ KK AA( even though the fact that he didn't reraise me on the flop once more pretty much narrowed the chances of that).
YOU KNOW WHAT. THERE ARE SO MANY LINES YOU CAN TAKE IN A HAND LIKE THIS. i like the line you took and your logic makes sense.

3betting preflop was not a mistake. nor was the cbet. . to be honest the way you play the hand was great.Nh sir.
 
LD1977

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I am starting to think there might be differences in player pools depending on which site you play on.

In my 2NL experience (Full Tilt), 5* raise on the flop would usually be a better hand. Especially "regs" don't bluff at all.
 
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doomasiggy

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Usually i play tournaments or sit n go's, i am not sure if i played this correctly.

I am SB with [Jd Jc]. 1 limper, HJ min-raises, i 3 bet to 5BB( or 2.5 his raise).He calls.

*** FLOP *** [3c Ts Tc]

I bet half the pot, thinking that he would not have come in with A 10 or K 10, so my fish hooks might be good.

Check here sometimes. If you feel he has it in him to fold weak aces then we can check to invite a donk bet.

He raises me 5x my raise. At this point i was thinking QQ, KK, AA or maybe AQ AK(one of these too seemed more likely).

At this point i have no idea what i was facing. The reraise seemed huge and i thought that he might want to buy the pot, i flat called.

Fold against most fish. Depends on how spewey he is tbh. If he's loose passive then we can fold here and happily avoid losing a big pot, if we have any reads that he gets aggro on dry flops with air then we can continue without much risk.

*** TURN *** [3c Ts Tc] <font color='black'>2♣</font>

He fires 50 more cents. I decided to go all in because i felt like he was trying to bully me out of the pot.

Then call. Keep his range wider and we get more value at showdown. Plus we can river the flush sometimes

Don't give results when posting hands btw. It biases the advice you get.
 
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@ doomasiggy

I agree that the big mistake was over inflating the pot with a trouble hand. I had him pot comitted and that's why he felt like he had to chase me.

If you were to ask me now i would never 3 bet now with JJ oop, but at the same time, if i didn't reraise i wouldn't have narrowed his range down to AK AQ(aside from the posibillity that he might be just trapping with a flat call with AA KK - which is still possible).

When flop came 10 10 2, he could have easily had A 10 suited or even off-suit depending how fishy + the position which would have made it a fold for me.

The mistake of over-inflating the pot, helped me narrow his range,but that doesn't make it any less of a mistake. An experience poker player could have had alligator skin and just slowplayed AA or KK.
 
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doomasiggy

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^dude, it's 2nl and you're up against an unknown. 3-betting JJ is FINE. They love to call and you'll get so much value so long as you know to fold to 4-bets.

I like checking boards like this just because it induces players to bet with worse, but it's a personal preference and honestly, c-betting here is fine.

worst spot is the turn jam imo.
 
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worst spot is the turn jam imo.

Turn jam was like this: I had 96 cents sitting in front of a 50 cents raise. I thought to myself if i just call then chances are if an overpair hits i will just fold and chicken out due to lack of experience and being afraid.
I had a AQ vibe and i said that i should trust what i narrowed down.

I have a small bankroll so i buy-in for lower to protect myself from misreading and losing too much on a bad move or lack of experience.

If i was deeper stacked, i would have probably folded on the flop.
 
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doomasiggy

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Turn jam was like this: I had 96 cents sitting in front of a 50 cents raise.

You didn't mention that in the OP. Jamming the turn is much better there in that case.
 
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I'm sorry.
I am new to the whole gadgets and stuff like that.
Vynil Spiros was nice enough to tell me where i can convert my hand and will help me with several things so i will correct these things. :)
 
Aleksei

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1) 3bet much bigger. You're OOP vs 2 people, so you just wanna end the hand now while you're ahead. I'd 3bet to like 8-10BB.

2) Flop bet is kinda bad. After Villain flatted a 3bet from the blinds you should assume, barring reads, his range is really narrow, and thus the only thing you beat in it is the sizable amount of air it now contains. If he doesn't fold to your bet, you're down to 15% equity barring further reads. The good news is that people miss a ton in that particular flop -- he'd probably fold slightly over half his range making your bet instantly profitable, provided you gave up if he played back at you.

Though admittedly, a raise on that flop does look kind of suspicious (a thinking opponent will realize that a 1/2 pot bet in that flop has a pretty weak range behind it), but the spot was still breakeven at best. He could easily be raising IP with KK/AA, Tx and a flush with 2 overs.

Overall, not loving that hand.
 
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1) 3bet much bigger. You're OOP vs 2 people, so you just wanna end the hand now while you're ahead. I'd 3bet to like 8-10BB.

2) Flop bet is kinda bad. After Villain flatted a 3bet from the blinds you should assume, barring reads, his range is really narrow, and thus the only thing you beat in it is the sizable amount of air it now contains. If he doesn't fold to your bet, you're down to 15% equity barring further reads. The good news is that people miss a ton in that particular flop -- he'd probably fold slightly over half his range making your bet instantly profitable, provided you gave up if he played back at you.

Though admittedly, a raise on that flop does look kind of suspicious (a thinking opponent will realize that a 1/2 pot bet in that flop has a pretty weak range behind it), but the spot was still breakeven at best. He could easily be raising IP with KK/AA, Tx and a flush with 2 overs.

Overall, not loving that hand.

I pretty much took out the possibility of AA or KK on the flop since if he had me he would have played back at me(it would not have been impossible though-that i admit).
I thought that A10 or 10x suited was not something he would follow because it don't consider that to be profitable.


If the flop contained ANY overcard i would have dumped them then and there.
The flop was really dry and most people miss their flops so while ruling out the 10 and a suited overcard i thought that i could continue provided an overcard didn't appear on the turn.

On the flop the pot was 20 cents, i bet 10 cents and at that point he shot back at me with 50 cents and i thought it's a little akward shooting a ~150% pot sized bet on that flop.

I played it bad, i will never deny that. I just started with cash games and that was ironically the first cash hand in months. In tournaments it's easier because if i make a mistake and i have chips, i can still tighten up and wait to pick chips off.

I don't understand why i shouldn't fire off the c-bet. I was the original agressor, the flop was dry and EXACTLY what i expected since i was looking to dodge the overcards. I fired it off thinking/hoping that he folds then and there. No c-bet = free overcard/free chance for him to pursue the flush draw, at the same time he could have taken charge and become the aggressor.
 
Aleksei

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I pretty much took out the possibility of AA or KK on the flop since if he had me he would have played back at me(it would not have been impossible though-that i admit).
He could, but a lot of people flat 3bet with AA/KK to trap.

I thought that A10 or 10x suited was not something he would follow because it don't consider that to be profitable.
You're not giving him odds to fold anything with any postflop value in position, which is why you needed to 3bet bigger. Think about it: He's in position and you have initiative, so if he hits the flop hard it won't be very hard for him to get your stack in, you still have 95BB behind (with an extra 7BB of dead money in pot), and he just has to risk 3BB to see a flop. He's actually in an even better position to imply his odds than if you'd flatted his raise.

(I'm assuming you both have full stacks).

If the flop contained ANY overcard i would have dumped them then and there.
The flop was really dry and most people miss their flops so while ruling out the 10 and a suited overcard i thought that i could continue provided an overcard didn't appear on the turn.
The problem is that the fact people miss so much means it's hard to extract actual value from that kind of a flop. Remember: In order to bet for value you need the expectation that people will call you with worse. The only thing that can possibly call you down for value in that board is Tx, flush+overs, and overpairs. You're thus in bad shape pretty much 100% of the time if he decides to continue unless he bluff-raises (as he actually did).

Effectively, you just turned a showdown value hand into a bluff, and didn't even realize it.

On the flop the pot was 20 cents, i bet 10 cents and at that point he shot back at me with 50 cents and i thought it's a little akward shooting a ~150% pot sized bet on that flop.
I think it's smart. The board's two-tone, so QQ+ and Tx would do that for protection against flush draws. AK/AQ/KQ of clubs does it to get more money in pot while they're ahead, and then if he whiffs that you could ever be bluffing that board he could do it with just total air.

I don't understand why i shouldn't fire off the c-bet. I was the original agressor, the flop was dry and EXACTLY what i expected since i was looking to dodge the overcards. I fired it off thinking/hoping that he folds then and there. No c-bet = free overcard/free chance for him to pursue the flush draw, at the same time he could have taken charge and become the aggressor.
The problem is that nothing worse calls and nothing better folds, which includes flush draws that have you covered. You can't fold FD+overs to a 1/2 pot bet, your odds are actually straight-up good enough to peel a single street.

Yes, people miss that board a ton, but that makes it a good board to bluff, not really a good board to value-bet. You can really only expect to get value from Tx, KQ/AJ+ of clubs, and QQ+. Betting with anything else is automatically a bluff. Personally I'd fire off like 1.2x pot (planning to get a ton of folds), then reevaluate on the turn if he peels. This is really kind of a tough spot.
 
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@Aleksei

I am beginning to understand what you are saying with implied odds by not making the 3 bet high enough.

I knew that the only chance i had to continue was for the board to not hit any overpairs. I was well aware of that as i said above in the other posts.

It took me a little while to understand,but i think i get it. On that flop i should have made a bigger bet or 4 bet him. By value betting half the pot i was only giving him the implied odds to try to take me down.

This is a lot more advanced for me. I get a lot of concepts, i know some strategy,but 3-betting for value or fold equity and stuff like that is something that i don't comprehend yet.
 
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