$2 NLHE Full Ring: Really unsure about my play with flopped middle set

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Tricky123bet

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888 Poker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 58.5 BB (VPIP: 9.22, PFR: 8.74, 3Bet Preflop: 2.67, hands: 210)
Hero (MP): 102 BB
CO: 106.5 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 9.52, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 21)
BTN: 44 BB (VPIP: 8.06, PFR: 4.84, 3Bet Preflop: 1.96, Hands: 124)
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 14.94, PFR: 7.79, 3Bet Preflop: 2.78, Hands: 155)
BB: 100.5 BB (VPIP: 10.53, PFR: 7.89, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 39)
UTG: 109 BB (VPIP: 43.75, PFR: 6.25, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 8:spade: 8:diamond:

UTG raises to 2 BB, fold, Hero calls 2 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 1.5 BB, BB calls 1 BB

Flop: (8 BB, 4 players) T:club: 8:heart: 5:club:
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB, SB calls 3 BB, BB calls 3 BB

Turn: (20 BB, 4 players) Q:club:
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets 13 BB, SB calls 13 BB, fold, fold

River: (46 BB, 2 players) A:heart:
SB checks, Hero bets 29 BB, SB calls 29 BB

I'll leave it up to you guys first, and then I'll debate with you what I think about the hand/ how I could have played it better, and of course the result for last.
 
Lorpugo

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when the turn hit third spade it is clear someone has ush so check for full and fold if he bets
 
Lorpugo

Lorpugo

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what exactly are you betting 30 bb on the river against flush?
 
froggeedogs

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flopped middle set

I would have called the raise as well. and the small bet on the flop. Once the third club hit the board I would have checked with the others and waited for the turn. However, once you bet there and the small blind called, I would have checked on the river. curious as to what the SB had. thinking flush but low cards maybe? he was calling but not raising.
 
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Gerb

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Lots of straight and flush draws on the turn so i like that bet, but then you're hardly getting calls from 2 pair or worse on that board, so check behind river.
 
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braveslice

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My style: Raise flop, turn good, river a bit smaller (21 sounds nice in big blinds, but an amount that looks weak on the board)

Not raising flop is something I don't really understand in this hand. River for sure can be check too against tight player, especially if the pot size is large.
 
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Tricky123bet

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My style: Raise flop, turn good, river a bit smaller (21 sounds nice in big blinds, but an amount that looks weak on the board)

Not raising flop is something I don't really understand in this hand. River for sure can be check too against tight player, especially if the pot size is large.

Yeah I think not raising flop was probably the biggest mistake in this hand. Raising gets value from a bunch of stuff, before the turn comes with a scary card, like the flush card.
I guess I was thinking that the 2 opponent's behind me are going to call with some weak stuff too, and were going to call with a flush draw regardless, so might as well keep some weak stuff in that I dominate. But as I said the turn will often slow us down, so building the pot on the flop with a raise is better.
On the turn I planned to bet/fold, which might get called by some flush draws, but there are probably only gutshots with a club and top pair with a club that calls the flop, which is not too too many combos.
For some reason when he calls the turn I felt like he didn't have a flush, although it is possible. A few two pair combos of AT and AQ comes in, but also the KJ, so the value bet on the river is thin, and maybe a little bit too big.
 
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SafetyMark

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My honest assessment: Do not play
I don't mean at all or in general.
I mean use better game selection, as I don't understand why you'd want to be at this table.

From there, knowing you have less wiggle room with this lineup, you really think all that action on the flop no one is going to call with a four flush unless it is those very specific combos you mentioned? I'd strongly disagree. I'd disagree so much so that I'd say some small four flushes might fold the flop after others enter simply because they're thinking a better four flush is out there.

Super passive play through most of the hand and betting super thin after a flush and plenty straights get there (not even mentioning all better sets) is very "new school" and nice job all on following what the "experts" are teaching in their classes.

You're playing on 888, which has plenty of action if you prefer online or live is less feasible for some reason. Take more of an advantage of your options and pick a better table. (I guess maybe this doesn't apply *as much* if you're playing like 40 tables at once and practically no others are open, but even then I think maybe think about it more)
 
No1eJoker

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I think you're need to re-raise him on the flop and all-in on river. When will result?
 
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Tricky123bet

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My honest assessment: Do not play
I don't mean at all or in general.
I mean use better game selection, as I don't understand why you'd want to be at this table.

From there, knowing you have less wiggle room with this lineup, you really think all that action on the flop no one is going to call with a four flush unless it is those very specific combos you mentioned? I'd strongly disagree. I'd disagree so much so that I'd say some small four flushes might fold the flop after others enter simply because they're thinking a better four flush is out there.

Super passive play through most of the hand and betting super thin after a flush and plenty straights get there (not even mentioning all better sets) is very "new school" and nice job all on following what the "experts" are teaching in their classes.

You're playing on 888, which has plenty of action if you prefer online or live is less feasible for some reason. Take more of an advantage of your options and pick a better table. (I guess maybe this doesn't apply *as much* if you're playing like 40 tables at once and practically no others are open, but even then I think maybe think about it more)

Yeah, I'm a little bit lazy in my table selection usually, definitely something I should work on. This table has a fish though (UTG), so isn't it better to play until he leaves?
River is pretty bad, I know. At least making the bet smaller, if betting at all.
4 players to a flop of two cards of the same suit doesn't guarantee that the one who ends up calling me down has a flush. It would be interesting to see some numbers on how often that is the case though.
 
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Tricky123bet

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And he ended up having QT of hearts for those who wondered.
 
Omahahahaha

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I don't mind going for thin value on the river but for the love of god man raise the flop
 
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TCashMoney19

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Preflop: Feels pretty standard, no mistakes here. Calling to setmine with effective stacks being what they are.

Flop: Obvious gin for us flopping the second nuts. This is a clear raise in my opinion though, cause when we call and allow other players in the hand to realize their equity for cheap (gutshots, flush draws, straight draws, etc) on such a wet board we're risking losing a lot of value. So I think it's a clear raise here, something to the tone of like 10.5 BBs and then move forward from there.

Turn: Thought for sure your set was cracked after going 4 ways to a turn card and seeing the queen of clubs roll off. The J9 straight draw gets there, the flush gets there and I can't imagine we would get any more value from a 97s or 67s type hand anymore, as they could be thinking I'm drawing to less outs and I'm dead to a flush already. The only hands I can still see us getting value from is either T8 (which we block), pocket 55s, QJs, or some sort of strong combo draw + pair. I don't think checking is a great idea on this turn though, so I like the bet, but this is like one of the nut worst turn cards for us considering the SB and BBs ranges.

River: When checked to, I like the bet, but we put ourselves in a really sick spot when Villain check raises this river and I don't ever see them doing this as a bluff or with a second best hand. I would have to see Villains stats, and against passive opponents I would bet with the intention of folding to a river jam and against an aggressive opponent who is capable of bluffing this river with blockers or something of that nature, I might even consider checking it back as it's hard to get value from a lot of hands against competent players. A 10 is certainly folding, a bare queen might even find a fold most of the time so I think the only hands that we really get value from are AT with the ace of clubs, pocket 55s and QTs and MAYBE T8s but we block that so not as likely.

Overall, I like the value bet and I'm glad you were able to get value from one of the few second best hands that Villain can have here and just call the river with. However, going 4 ways to that turn card against aggressive opponents, I might consider pot controlling against good players on the river who can turn hands with blockers into a bluff and put our set in a world of pain.
 
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Tricky123bet

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Preflop: Feels pretty standard, no mistakes here. Calling to setmine with effective stacks being what they are.

Flop: Obvious gin for us flopping the second nuts. This is a clear raise in my opinion though, cause when we call and allow other players in the hand to realize their equity for cheap (gutshots, flush draws, straight draws, etc) on such a wet board we're risking losing a lot of value. So I think it's a clear raise here, something to the tone of like 10.5 BBs and then move forward from there.

Turn: Thought for sure your set was cracked after going 4 ways to a turn card and seeing the queen of clubs roll off. The J9 straight draw gets there, the flush gets there and I can't imagine we would get any more value from a 97s or 67s type hand anymore, as they could be thinking I'm drawing to less outs and I'm dead to a flush already. The only hands I can still see us getting value from is either T8 (which we block), pocket 55s, QJs, or some sort of strong combo draw + pair. I don't think checking is a great idea on this turn though, so I like the bet, but this is like one of the nut worst turn cards for us considering the SB and BBs ranges.

River: When checked to, I like the bet, but we put ourselves in a really sick spot when Villain check raises this river and I don't ever see them doing this as a bluff or with a second best hand. I would have to see Villains stats, and against passive opponents I would bet with the intention of folding to a river jam and against an aggressive opponent who is capable of bluffing this river with blockers or something of that nature, I might even consider checking it back as it's hard to get value from a lot of hands against competent players. A 10 is certainly folding, a bare queen might even find a fold most of the time so I think the only hands that we really get value from are AT with the ace of clubs, pocket 55s and QTs and MAYBE T8s but we block that so not as likely.

Overall, I like the value bet and I'm glad you were able to get value from one of the few second best hands that Villain can have here and just call the river with. However, going 4 ways to that turn card against aggressive opponents, I might consider pot controlling against good players on the river who can turn hands with blockers into a bluff and put our set in a world of pain.

I think I expected the players in the blinds to check-raise if they turned a flush. A move people in the micros love to do with nutted hands is to check-raise. So the turn bet was kind of a weird bet that mixed the intention of both getting value and information. I knew that they can certainly check-call with a flush OTT, and then check-raise the river. So the "information" I got OTT wasn't a 100% good either.
OTR my intention was indeed to bet-fold. I don't think this is a player that will reraise bluff me, and neither do I think he would have read into my bet size too much, which is why I think a smaller bet would get value more often against two pairs and 55, and would also lose me less money when he has a flush. From the assumptions I make about this player, bet-folding is the best line OTR, but if I had some suspicions that villain is often trapping with big hands until the river, when they will raise, I would check back.
So I don't mind whichever option I choose there, but especially flop and probably turn aswell could have been played better.
 
Xcoder

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The only thing I may have done differently is reraise on the flop.. But i do think you played it fairly well.
 
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Rorz1012

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Preflop: Completely standard. SB seems like he's been playing incredibly tight but could have just been card dead that session considering the sample size

Flop: As everyone said, a raise would have definitely been the best play. Like 10BB+ for pure value (I doubt you would generate folds at these stakes with a draw). Not raising was the biggest problem as a lot of value was left on the table.

Turn: thin value, thin value, thin value. You want to minimize your bets, especially considering you're out of position against SB. If you get raised, you definitely need to think about hitting the fold button. But depending on the size of the bet and your read on SB, you can think about flatting the raise as you still have worthwhile outs against a flush (13 outs to beat a flush with 33 cards to come?)

River: Card does close up a nutted straight, but SB playing with KJ is highly unlikely on a flush board(unless KcJc), as well as it blocking any nutted flush. So this is definitely a good card in that sense, however it does lead you to think he had a baby-middle flush. And he could have J9s and is just flatting, worried about the flush. But he could just as easily have two pair.
Again, I would thin value bet here. Would be strange if you got raised but it's entirely possible. If so, calling all depends on your read of the player (does he overvalue top pair, etc.?) but I would lean towards folding.

You definitely played the hand well except the call on the flop. These are always tough hands to play, especially against passive opponents. Just adding what my thought process would have been. And if you ran into the flush or straight, it would make sense and there's not much you can do other than hate life lol.
 
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