$2 NLHE Full Ring: QQ vs AKo; was I right calling all in?

Ainars

Ainars

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pokerstars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: $2.07 (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 23.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 31)
Hero (SB): $2.01
BB: $2.00 (VPIP: 17.50, PFR: 15.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 40)
UTG: $2.58 (VPIP: 17.97, PFR: 10.94, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 129)
UTG+1: $2.14 (VPIP: 17.14, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 35)
MP: $3.30 (VPIP: 8.57, PFR: 2.86, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
MP+1: $2.10 (VPIP: 17.65, PFR: 17.65, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 17)
CO: $0.59 (VPIP: 9.09, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 33)

Hero posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has As Kd
fold, fold, fold, MP+1 calls $0.02, fold, BTN raises to $0.06, Hero raises to $0.24, fold, fold, BTN raises to $2.07 and is all-in, Hero calls $1.77 and is all-in

Flop : ($4.06, 2 players) 6c Jd 8d

Turn : ($4.06, 2 players) Qs

River : ($4.06, 2 players) 2c

Hero shows As Kd (High Card, Ace)
(Pre 43%, Flop 28%, Turn 9%)

BTN shows Qc Qh (Three of a Kind, Queens)
(Pre 57%, Flop 72%, Turn 91%)

BTN wins $3.92
 
ConDeck

ConDeck

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Personally at 2NL, unless I have history or evidence to demonstrate otherwise, I am folding here. At higher stakes it's slightly different as opp are capable of 4 and 5 betting light. Once the button jams your 3bet here QQ is your best case scenario where.

In the above hand your getting roughly 4:3 on your call, which is roughly 43% pot odds when you have 43% equity so the call is breakeven... However if you add in all the times he has AA and KK its a substantially losing call.

Having played a lot of hands at these stakes I hardly ever see this done with worse than QQ and when it is you are flipping at best... Long term -EV.
 
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cursed989

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Personally at 2NL, unless I have history or evidence to demonstrate otherwise, I am folding here. At higher stakes it's slightly different as opp are capable of 4 and 5 betting light. Once the button jams your 3bet here QQ is your best case scenario where.

In the above hand your getting roughly 4:3 on your call, which is roughly 43% pot odds when you have 43% equity so the call is breakeven... However if you add in all the times he has AA and KK its a substantially losing call.

Having played a lot of hands at these stakes I hardly ever see this done with worse than QQ and when it is you are flipping at best... Long term -EV.

Agreed. It sucks laying down a few chips and then laying down AK preflop after, but your opponent is already surely putting you on a strong hand and throwing his whole stack down in response. The call only makes sense to me if you think he is bluffing completely, and I don't see that being the case here.
 
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JKo2theQQ

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I would have to agree with condeck. You may get lucky from time to time and run into a player who shows up light here with AJ, AQ,. Most of the time you will have 2 overs (so about 50/50) or be WAY behind AA/KK. Save your money here because you can find a better spot.

On a side note.....The villain here has a very high VPIP. With only 31 hands against this villain it doesn't mean a ton, but if you had substantially more hands and the VPIP was still that high, I might argue for a call.
 
ConDeck

ConDeck

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On a side note.....The villain here has a very high VPIP. With only 31 hands against this villain it doesn't mean a ton, but if you had substantially more hands and the VPIP was still that high, I might argue for a call.


VPIP does not indicate how often somebody is willing to stack off... Just because they are loose pre flop, does not mean they are sticking there entire stack in light.. I would be wanting other stats and playing history to indicate that first
 
IPlay

IPlay

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Got too fold this pre, if you were shoving it is another story. You need 45% equity to call here profitably and unless you know he is doing this super light it is a fold since you only hold about 40 against a range of JJ+, AKo+ and I would not add hands like 109s into this range since villain is on button and would be more inclined to call and play postflop.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Such insight. Very solid post.
How's this: BTN is a 33/23 over 30 hands, so he's clearly not a nit, and 4-bet shoves are usually not the nuts.

45% equity is achievable here for sure.
 
IPlay

IPlay

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How's this: BTN is a 33/23 over 30 hands, so he's clearly not a nit, and 4-bet shoves are usually not the nuts.

45% equity is achievable here for sure.

Oh a 30 hand sample! He could not of possibly got 11 playable hands out of the first 30 in heros database!

My bad.
 
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cursed989

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I'd be curious of your reasoning behind the "4-bet shoves are usually not the nuts," comment.
 
6

6bet me

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I'd be curious of your reasoning behind the "4-bet shoves are usually not the nuts," comment.

Because why would someone with the nuts want to shove their opponent out of the flop? They want to extract value. They want you to call or raise, not fold.

But QQ is different because it's not the nuts. From the villain's perspective (remember this is 2 NL so the villain is probably scared and illogical), he doesn't want to wait for an A or K to come on the board because that will put him in a tough spot, so he wants to immediately shove, even if it means attracting a fold and receiving a smaller prize.

I've seen villains at 2NL do things like this: they'll limp in with 88, wait to see a flop where there are no overcards (eg. 347 rainbow), then shove on the flop and get everyone else to fold. But the same villain with 56 here would be more inclined to make a standard sized raise to attract more callers.

In summary, 4bet shoves with AA aren't all that common at 2NL. Most of the time they're done with 99 to KK or AK. It's still a coin flip at best, so I'd still agree with all the other posters who recommend folding AK preflop, but it's not as bad as facing AA.
 
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cursed989

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Because why would someone with the nuts want to shove their opponent out of the flop? They want to extract value. They want you to call or raise, not fold.

But QQ is different because it's not the nuts. From the villain's perspective (remember this is 2 NL so the villain is probably scared and illogical), he doesn't want to wait for an A or K to come on the board because that will put him in a tough spot, so he wants to immediately shove, even if it means attracting a fold and receiving a smaller prize.

I've seen villains at 2NL do things like this: they'll limp in with 88, wait to see a flop where there are no overcards (eg. 347 rainbow), then shove on the flop and get everyone else to fold. But the same villain with 56 here would be more inclined to make a standard sized raise to attract more callers.

In summary, 4bet shoves with AA aren't all that common at 2NL. Most of the time they're done with 99 to KK or AK. It's still a coin flip at best, so I'd still agree with all the other posters who recommend folding AK preflop, but it's not as bad as facing AA.

I mean, I certainly understand the concept of drawing in action to a strong hand, etc.. But especially in micro/low stakes I don't think I'd ever rule out someone 4-bet shoving AA. I find that many players see a 3-bet and think - well, he's not letting go, let's put the chips in!

Your explanation makes perfect sense - I just don't find that many players at these stakes put much thought in beyond the re-raise. The 3-better is often mentally committed at that point, in my experience. I'll definitely be watching for that specifically now, though - I'd love to experiment with it a bit.
 
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Joaquin Moris

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I think u should had called. Check the flop and control the pot
 
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hffjd2000

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The question is, are you willing to take those flips?

For me AK and JJ are the hardest hands to play with.
 
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dsk1231

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PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: $2.07 (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 23.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 31)
Hero (SB): $2.01
BB: $2.00 (VPIP: 17.50, PFR: 15.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 40)
UTG: $2.58 (VPIP: 17.97, PFR: 10.94, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 129)
UTG+1: $2.14 (VPIP: 17.14, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 35)
MP: $3.30 (VPIP: 8.57, PFR: 2.86, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
MP+1: $2.10 (VPIP: 17.65, PFR: 17.65, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 17)
CO: $0.59 (VPIP: 9.09, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 33)

Hero posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has As Kd
fold, fold, fold, MP+1 calls $0.02, fold, BTN raises to $0.06, Hero raises to $0.24, fold, fold, BTN raises to $2.07 and is all-in, Hero calls $1.77 and is all-in

Flop : ($4.06, 2 players) 6c Jd 8d

Turn : ($4.06, 2 players) Qs

River : ($4.06, 2 players) 2c

Hero shows As Kd (High Card, Ace)
(Pre 43%, Flop 28%, Turn 9%)

BTN shows Qc Qh (Three of a Kind, Queens)
(Pre 57%, Flop 72%, Turn 91%)

BTN wins $3.92

I'd be inclined to fold here considering you don't have many hands on this villian. If you calculate AK's equity vs QQ+ and AK range you're only like a little over 40% equity. I tend to only be willing to get it in with KK+ in a vaccuum to assure I have an equity advantage. Once I get more hands and reads on villians I will widen my range accordingly.
 
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