$2 NLHE Full Ring: QQ vs 3-bet from SB

n3rv

n3rv

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Button ($2.60)
SB ($2.43)
BB ($1.70)
UTG ($3.30)
UTG+1 ($2.22)
MP1 ($1.94)
MP2 ($1.97)
Hero (MP3) ($2.20)
CO ($1.78)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q
club.gif
, Q
diamond.gif

4 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, 2 folds, SB raises to $0.16, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.34) 4
spade.gif
, 9
spade.gif
, 7
diamond.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $0.24

Not much info, table is usually quite tight and passive. What would you do?
 
Last edited:
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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Call. If we flop about as well as we can and still aren't happy then why call pre. Folding here is so nitty.

In fact, it isn't even nitty, it's just burning money.
 
n3rv

n3rv

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Call. If we flop about as well as we can and still aren't happy then why call pre. Folding here is so nitty.

In fact, it isn't even nitty, it's just burning money.

The reason we call pre is because if we 4-bet, only worse hands fold and only better or flipping hands call or 5-bet us.

Calling means we can set mine or c-bet any flop which is checked to us.

The only problem here is that the SB has the betting lead, has 3-bet into us, and led into us again pretty heavily on the flop.

What hand is realistically in their range, which we can beat, that can do this? AKs, JJ, TT...? TJs, A9s? A pure bluff with air?

Honestly the 3-bet with a TJ or A9 and the c-bet on the flop OOP seems unlikely - they might as well just be bluffing.

But if we still think we are ahead here most of the time then should we not be re-raising for more value?

I just can't see how calling is the optimal play here. I don't know if folding or re-raising is either, but I think we are in a polarised position, especially without the betting lead, making it awkward to know where we really stand.

The way I see it we are either ahead and should be extracting value and protecting against drawing hands or we are behind already and in pretty bad shape.

Would you do anything different pre-flop? What would you put their general range on most of the time?
 
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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I understand the call pre, although at 2nl I don't mind 4 betting because even regs will call with worse.

We are certainly not calling to 'set-mine' and we can't 'c-bet' because we didn't raise last pre-flop.

Your analysis of villains hand range isn't great. His range is so wide still at this point. You are giving far too much respect. At 200nl this is a standard flop call, never mind at 2nl.

I don't mind raising the flop because at this limit they will call with worse often enough that we just want to get stacks in but a call is fine if villain is competent.

Please tell me you didn't fold here...
 
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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Also should point out you aren't getting odds to set mine anyway. If you are playing this hand to bet when villain gives up or you don't hit a set, then I guarantee you I could make any two cards just as profitable as you in this situation.
 
stevenright

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he would do that with Ax spades, JJ, TT, KK, AA.. theres more hands that he would do it that dont beat you there.. reraise and expect a shove to call... if he has you beat is just a cooler and you sure have to afford it
 
n3rv

n3rv

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I understand the call pre, although at 2nl I don't mind 4 betting because even regs will call with worse.

We are certainly not calling to 'set-mine' and we can't 'c-bet' because we didn't raise last pre-flop.

I was just answering the question you asked. I apologise if it was rhetorical... as for the set mining and betting after we perceive weakness, they were just part of the reasons of why to call - I realise we do not have the betting lead as I explained, I just didn't know what else to call the bet and accidentally called it a c-bet so I apologise if I used the wrong terminology here as well.

As for 2NL, I agree a lot of types of players can call with worse, but it is kind of rare when they are the aggressors and we don't know much about them. Honestly the table was quite tight and passive so it is hard to know that they will.

Your analysis of villains hand range isn't great. His range is so wide still at this point. You are giving far too much respect. At 200nl this is a standard flop call, never mind at 2nl.

Yes, I admit I have absolutely no idea where I stand here... hence why I have been asking for clarification of what you think his likely range is.

I don't mind raising the flop because at this limit they will call with worse often enough that we just want to get stacks in but a call is fine if villain is competent.

Please tell me you didn't fold here...

I re-raised and got his stack in, he had AA. Hence why I am looking for ways to get away in the future.

Also should point out you aren't getting odds to set mine anyway. If you are playing this hand to bet when villain gives up or you don't hit a set, then I guarantee you I could make any two cards just as profitable as you in this situation.

I didn't play it just to do those things... I just want a better way to get away when I am dominated. A 4-bet pre could potentially solve this, but only really if we are 5-bet into. I just can't figure out a way to know where I am at better in these kinds of situations.
 
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tomnovember

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I will call here and see his turn performance.
 
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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You're being results orientated. We play against a range of hands villain can have, not against the result. Like I said I prefer to call but I don't mind raising. Folding is not an option there.

4 betting preflop to 'get away' from bigger hands is not a reason to 4 bet.
 
Nathan Williams

Nathan Williams

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Raise more preflop. Considering 4Betting as well. As played definitely raise the flop 3x or so.
 
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CactusCat

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Your first instinct was right, wasn't it? You didn't 4-bet pre because you had some inkling or suspicion that you were up against KK or AA. I mean, you were dead on. Flop a set - then stack him because it looks like you're overplaying AQ. But unfortunately the flop basically locked QQ into the hand.

A very resonant passage from the Easy Game by BalugaWhale I'd refer to is: think of the coolers you've gotten and the hands you've held when takingthem. He was talking from preflop specifically. Even in the micros JJ is played conservatively relative to the other big pairs. It'll call modest raises, but they don't 3-bet with it as often as you'd think. How often are you coolering JJ with QQ in comparison to being on the receiving end against KK and AA?

Are you really aiming to cooler 1010? Even at the micros there aren't too many players shit enough to get themselves stacked with 1010 as an overpair.

If you who can fold overpairs when you're beat, then you're making money. Not burning it.

In the micros, players sometime suddenly open-shove preflop their whole stack. It's AA/KK 90% of the time, hoping someone wakes up with QQ/JJ/AK. The other 10% of the time it's QQ and at worst AK when they're looking to gamble.

QQ obviously isn't a trivial fold, but it's not the same hero fold as KK. I have done it before preflop and seen someone wake up with JJ behind me and get stacked preflop by what indeed turned out to be KK or AA. When someone calls my raise who I know has an extensive history of playing AA/KK by trapping postflop, I intentionally rep a missed AK to keep the pot small and usually lose the minimum.

I'd also make it 12c pre with JJ+ and AK. In this instance someone had aces, not too much you can do, but the majority of the time when you're not reraised, people will call with their pocket pairs, ace rags, etc. so make the open bigger. You know they'd reraise you with KK/AA 100% of the time, so you as the aggressor know you have the best hand. Then your c-bet is bigger in relation to the pot, and you set up pot-sized turn bets and river shoves. 6c is way too small - it's inviting the entire table to flop two pair or a set on you.
 
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Pavelito51

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well if you flat call his 3bet this is defenitely call on that flop
however, at that limit 4betting QQ pre is EV+
 
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