$2 NLHE Full Ring: QQ against a fish on paired flop, I think he has a smaller PP

CO: $2.08
BTN: $2.00
SB: $3.05
Hero (BB): $2.00
UTG: $1.01
UTG+1: $2.98
UTG+2: $1.98
MP1: $2.00
MP2: $2.11

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with Q :club: Q :spade:
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.02, 5 folds, Hero raises to $0.10, UTG+2 calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.21) 2 :diamond: T :spade: 2 :club: (2 players)
Hero bets $0.10, UTG+2 raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.61) 7 :diamond: (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20

River: ($1.01) 6 :spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $1.48 all in, Hero calls $1.48

UTG + 2 is 38 / 0 / 1.7 (48%) over only 27 hands. Looks like a typical fish.

These guys take this line with any pocket pair or a T since they are unable to grasp the idea that a preflop raiser might have a bigger PP.

OK, this is the question:
1. Is my line optimal for extraction of money from a smaller PP? Should I bet river?

Bet more on flop, bet turn, shove river

onemorechance said:

Bet more on flop, bet turn, shove river

Click to expand...

Yes.

Why bet larger on the flop?

- I normally cbet half pot. Is this wrong by itself?

- This bet sizing encourages the fish to stick around and I stack them quite often in this scenario (usually I am IP though, since I open LP a lot). Concretely in this case if he didn't catch river 6 he would probably bet small and then inevitably call my raise.

- This is one of those WAWB spots, isn't it better to play them carefully as a rule? Meaning smaller bet sizing.

LD1977 said:

Why bet larger on the flop?

- I normally cbet half pot. Is this wrong by itself?

- This bet sizing encourages the fish to stick around and I stack them quite often in this scenario (usually I am IP though, since I open LP a lot). Concretely in this case if he didn't catch river 6 he would probably bet small and then inevitably call my raise.

- This is one of those WAWB spots, isn't it better to play them carefully as a rule? Meaning smaller bet sizing.

Click to expand...

Yes. Larger, larger, larger. I've told you this before. Make 2/3 your default and adjust based on opponent, board texture, and your hand.

This is in no way, shape or form a WA/WB spot.

OK, I will try a bit larger cbets. I am trying to change only one thing at a time to keep things under control.

Other sources mention exactly this board as a good example of WAWB.

WA = lower PP or a T
WB = TT or a 2 or a bigger PP

Basically in each case there is a massive equity difference between opponents, at least this is how I understand the "WAWB" scenario.

Can you clarify?

WA/WB only really applies when you ONLY expect to get action from hands that beat you (think holding KK on an Ace high flop). That's not the case here as he's calling with all his Tx hands and all his pairs smaller than your QQ.

WA/WB calls for pot controlling when you can but even on WA/WB boards it's really hard to pot control when OOP so you should often just bet when OOP even in classic WA/WB spots (again this hand isn't).

i think its good that youre really thinking about poker LD but you really just need to learn to pot, pot GII at 2nl

just my opinion

have you read blackrains book?

Thanks for the explanation, now I get it.

Yes I received the book from a friend recently, still trying to digest it.

Trouble that I had with potting (I did that in the very beginning) was exactly that I always seemed to fold out every no hope hand and only got action from good holdings (flush draws, OESDs, sets, made straights, 2 pairs). With half potting I get many calls from garbage hands, not to mention silly raises (which I stack like 80% of the time).

I do understand that I am probably missing out on value somehow since even with pretty decent play I can't seem to get much better than 7.6 bb/100 (EV adjusted), so as a next step I am going to try the increase in cbet size to 2/3 pot as WVH suggests. It seems like a good compromise between half potting (loads of calls but stacking takes some effort) and potting (little action from garbage)

My BR is at over 300$ now so pretty soon (probably less than a month) I am going to start with 5NL, so I need to start playing a game that can hold up there too (not to mention 10NL and beyond).

Edit: One more benefit of half potting is that I can't be trapped, since when they shove turn with their nuts I just laugh at the overbet and fold

what did you start with? how many tables are you playing? and why the are you waiting for 60BIs for 5NL? if you dont mind me asking of course

good job btw gl moving up

I started with zero. Now I can play 4-6 tables easily (plus 1-2 tournaments on the side), 8-10 if I am fresh and focused.

This is how it went:
1) Played freerolls in December, got some $$$ (6.5$ for starters )
2) Played my first NL hands at cash 2NL (1 table) with careful observation of opponents, 100% exploitative approach and very little knowledge
3) Got on a bit of a heater
4) Started trying to play more tables (4-5), when things went to crap since I couldn't read opponents individually anymore and with habitual potting I got into a LOT of situations when I got stacked since I was getting trapped a lot while "value betting" villains with sets and such.
5) Took a break, started reading a bit more to try and get to a place where I can multitable and not spew.
6) Came back, played up to 8 tables with miniscule win rate and basically just stagnated
7) After collecting a large sample of hands did some analysis and found the largest leak (massive bleeding preflop)
8) Since 1.4. started winning comfortably and with no big downswings, half potting becoming a reliable way to outplay opponents.

The thing that I can't figure out with the potting strategy:
- People LOVE slowplaying strong hands - how can I read their holding if I am basically value betting myself? If I half pot they HAVE TO start showing strength early (usually turn chkraise) or massively overbet river.

Basically with a more conservative approach I never get any big downswings if I am paying attention. With potting I used to bleed like 10-20 buyins in a downswing, then get it all back in an upswing, but this is all card dependent and not skill dependent.

Problem is basically that when I am potting I also get pot committed same as the fish.

What am I missing?