$2 NLHE Full Ring: Playing nut FD on the flop

UTG+1: $0.80
UTG+2: $2.03
MP1: $2.00
MP2: $2.51
CO: $1.30
BTN: $1.87
SB: $1.96
Hero (BB): $2.08
UTG: $2.50

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with J ♠ K ♠
4 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.02, SB calls $0.01, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.08) T ♥ 4 ♠ A ♠ (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.08, BTN folds, SB folds, Hero raises to $0.24, MP2 raises to $0.63, Hero raises to $1.97, MP2 raises to $2.49 all in, Hero calls $0.09 all in

Turn: ($4.20) A ♣ (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: ($4.20) A ♥ (2 players - 2 are all in)

MP2 is 33 / 2 / over 90 hands, looks fishy.

I messed up preflop, should have raised there but was distracted.
Lets agree that was a mistake and move on to the flop.

Also, the silly sizing is just a miscalculation, I thought 3bet puts me All In.

My idea was that I have decent equity here against made hands (40% or so) so together with any fold equity this line is a +EV move.
I am counting on FD but the straight draw is a bonus.

I didn't want to bet the flop since these guys love taking weak bluffy shots if checked to them.

1. It is obviously safer to just call until I hit the draw but then it is hard to get paid. Which line is better?
2. I don't have FE after he reraises me, so is calling better? It is kind of weak and he will press me anyway. Also if I hit the FD on the turn he might just fold.

Raise pre. I like x/ring, once we get 3 bet I dont like flatting or folding so just ship it.

Raise pre definitely.

As played, I probably just lead this flop. I hate check/raising in limped pots where players are looking to hit lucky flops, and thus usually don't have much. Plus when they do bet, they're less likely to fold. If MP2 had raised, I like this line. However, I just lead as played. And if you do check, I prefer check/calling, since when fish pot the flop, they're typically not messing around.

After you get 3-bet, it probably doesn't matter much call vs. shove. I think I call, but you're going to be priced into calling a shove on blank turns anyways.

Checking pre is fine. In a multiway pot like that KJ doesn't play that well out of position. You are getting called anyway with K high in your hand and out of position.

On the flop you have no fold equity against an ace.

Against good players at higher stakes, shoving is fine. Against fishes at 2NL you're just getting your chips in there behind. You have 0 fold equity if they have top pair. If you hit your flush or str, you're getting paid off anyway.

Don't overestimate 2NL. Keep pot small and then make it big when you have the goods. There is a proper way to play poker. 2NL is a different animal. Tone the aggression down.

blueskies said:

Checking pre is fine. In a multiway pot like that KJ doesn't play that well out of position. You are getting called anyway with K high in your hand and out of position.

On the flop you have no fold equity against an ace.

Against good players at higher stakes, shoving is fine. Against fishes at 2NL you're just getting your chips in there behind. You have 0 fold equity if they have top pair. If you hit your flush or str, you're getting paid off anyway.

Don't overestimate 2NL. Keep pot small and then make it big when you have the goods. There is a proper way to play poker. 2NL is a different animal. Tone the aggression down.

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Checking pre is bad. I'd make it .12 or .14.

Post is kind of ugly. Don't really like ch/raising because we have no fold equity. So either lead or ch/call.

Checking pre is fine especially if you aren't hugely comfortable playing pots out of position yet. Post flop is where all the magic happens anyway.

I don't like the c/r for a few reasons, in a limped pot on a draw heavy board it's very likely a decent 2pr hand is going to lash back and re-raise (like what happened) giving you worse odds on your hand. You don't always have to bet big draws like they're the nuts, it's more important to get maximum value. A common mistake is to see you have an 11 out draw and ignore the action because your default monster draw instinct is to get it all in. While it's true that most of the time you're getting 50/50 v's the range and make profit through fold equity...there will be some scenarios where you make more money playing it a different way. For example this one where you have no fold equity.

Checking does nothing for building the pot up to get stacks in by the river. I prefer donking the flop for a pot size bet as there's a small chance your king high can take the free monies right there and if you get action then you will very likely get continued action from Ax/Baby flushes/str8's with no extra outs/2pr/set hands on later streets. If you're raised then you can call the raise in such a powerful position. If the off suit queen comes then villain is NEVER putting you on KJ and you will definately be getting stacks in on the turn. Implied odds for that particular out is huge. Then even if you hit your flush and villain thinks you have the flush he will still give you action from 2pr+. You potted the flop so there will be a nagging doubt in his head that you actually have the flush and that a bet on the turn is designed to scare him away. You will once again get at least one street of value. There's a 23% chance you hit one of your clean 11 outs and a 99% chance you'll get considerable action while you have the immortal nuts. Sometimes coin flipping big draws isn't best.

As you move up to higher stakes then bet/3bet or c/r becomes a more viable option because then you will get value from your sets/2prs when you take the same line in future hands but at micro stakes pretty much your entire decision making process should be dominated by the current hand.

In this spot you're 50/50 at best with no fold equity so blindly saying to yourself, "**** it i'll take the coin flip" isn't an optimal thought process.

OK, but what do I do if I bet the flop and call his raise and then the turn blanks?

I can't go back and probably neither can he. If we don't get it in then I might save some $$$ on the river when everything goes to crap (I beat exactly nothing except stone cold bluff and that is highly doubtful ).

P.S. In this case he had AT so I was dead on the turn, but I wouldn't be 100% sure that he doesn't just have an Ace.

LD1977 said:

OK, but what do I do if I bet the flop and call his raise and then the turn blanks?

I can't go back and probably neither can he. If we don't get it in then I might save some $$$ on the river when everything goes to crap (I beat exactly nothing except stone cold bluff and that is highly doubtful ).

P.S. In this case he had AT so I was dead on the turn, but I wouldn't be 100% sure that he doesn't just have an Ace.

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If the turn blanks and the board doesn't pair then it's just a case of check/calling if you're getting the right odds and repping a weak ace that doesn't want to fold. You still have 23% clean equity so if he bets half pot you're actually getting the correct(ish) immediate odds. If he bets pot it's close, queen still definately gets stacks in and flush still gets value bet and called if you made it something small like 25-35% of pot size. Either way you're still getting more than the 50/50 (maximum) equity you get shoving the flop.

In this spot if the board pairs then you're in bad shape no matter what. Villain is raising flop with 2pr/sets meaning a lot of the time your "monster draw" is now drawing dead or at best you're not getting implied odds because villain's 2pr is now afraid of flush AND trips. Basically you bet and call raise on the flop, turn pairs the board and you are check/folding to pretty much any bet.

It's a shame you posted the results because I would have typed this out anyway and you would have said he had AT and I would have sounded like a balla.

Well the way hand plays out it is obvious I am toast since he has to have something there.

I think you can have the balla status just for the explanation, no need to channel Negreanu

WVHillbilly said:

Checking pre is bad. I'd make it .12 or .14.

Post is kind of ugly. Don't really like ch/raising because we have no fold equity. So either lead or ch/call.

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I like this. Makes no sense to check raise on that flop especially since you didn't raise preflop. I'd just call and see the turn and go from there.
Your biggest mistakes were:
- Not raising preflop
- Check raising the flop.

c9h13no3 said:

Raise pre definitely.

As played, I probably just lead this flop. I hate check/raising in limped pots where players are looking to hit lucky flops, and thus usually don't have much. Plus when they do bet, they're less likely to fold. If MP2 had raised, I like this line. However, I just lead as played. And if you do check, I prefer check/calling, since when fish pot the flop, they're typically not messing around.

After you get 3-bet, it probably doesn't matter much call vs. shove. I think I call, but you're going to be priced into calling a shove on blank turns anyways.

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Ditto

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