$2 NLHE Full Ring: Playing KJo against an unknown villain

Here is a hand that has me wondering how I could have played differently (should I have played differently?).

2NL FR against an unknown who is OOP (only 4 hands on him).

PokerStove gives me an 83% (flop) and 85% (turn) chance of winning against a random hand.

Given villain's actions, I would think that he has something better than a random hand.
* Was there a better way to play the flop?
* How do you calculate if it's worth calling his turn turn bet?
* How do you interpret the pot-sized bet on the turn and what would you do next and why?




Cereus Network - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BB: $0.71
UTG: $2.00
UTG+1: $1.91
MP: $1.14
MP+1: $2.00
Hero (LP): $2.00
CO: $2.01
BTN: $4.22
SB: $1.77

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero has K♦ J♥

UTG calls $0.02, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.06, fold, BTN raises to $0.10, fold, fold, UTG calls $0.08, Hero calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.33, 3 players) J♦ Q♠ Q♥
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.26, fold, UTG raises to $0.52, Hero calls $0.26

Turn: ($1.37, 2 players) 2♦
UTG bets $1.37, Hero ???

yea i think you can easily fold this hand. you really have no information on him and since hes betting like crazy i think its safe to say he has a queen. are there times where you might be ahead here? i'd say yea against some opponents you are but the only info you have is his betting which is representing a queen so you should fold this away.

The old check reraise out of positon, Nice theres .33 in the flop you add .26 he adds .52 = $1.11 in the pot and you have to pay .26 to see the turn card in position on him??? In a multiway pot in mid pos you might have been better checking to see what the button does on the flop since he had position on both of you. Utg limps pre then calls raise pre?? He has anything. And prob has you beat. You could call his raise and see what happens on the turn and get out of it if he bets ,or maybe he chks the turn and river?? Prob not..

fold turn. Limp/call+min c/r+the turn pot bet means get out

i think folding preflop is your best bet here

Yep; i did'nt see te turn bet folddd,,

debpes said:

PokerStove gives me an 83% (flop) and 85% (turn) chance of winning against a random hand.

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Just because he's unknown doesn't mean he's taking this line with 100% of hands.

Have a think - what hands would you put in his range that he min 3bets pre? From there, what about min raising flop?

Pascal, btn is the min raiser pre and utg is the min raiser on the flop

My bad.

I'll rephrase:

What kind of hands do you think UTG limp calls then min check raises, and why?

Pascal LeFiscal said:

My bad.

I'll rephrase:

What kind of hands do you think UTG limp calls then min check raises, and why?

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How much is the answer to this affected by the game you're playing? At 2NL, how would you read unknowns? I've heard one person say "at micros assume everyone's a fish until proven otherwise." You could also argue that the smarter line is to assume when an unknown raises they have the cards to back up their action. I'm sure we've all seen both extremes play out.

Pascal, I really appreciate the question you're asking because it is an important educational point for me. Thinking about my own hand is that first level of thinking. I have to advance to thinking about what hands the villain has. Maybe I don't need to do more than that at 2NL (as some have suggested) but I have to do at least that. I also have to look more at the overall game they're playing in the hand and not just the action they're making on a specific street.

Some of my leaky behavior is that I over-assume the villain is bluffing ("he's just trying to scare me out of the pot"). I sometimes keep pushing when I should fold instead because of the "dammit, I should be able to win a hand for once" kind of thinking.

With only one limper in the pot, it was worth trying to take it from the hijack. But once I got raised and the villain called, that's when I should have gotten out. Especially with no knowledge about the other players.

I definitely see the progression in my game (and I'm really new to online poker--only about 7k hands total in cash Full Ring micro stakes) in this short time in terms of how I think about my hands. I wonder if there's a common progression that most new players go through (at least those players like me who are studying and really trying to improve their game).

Double post!

I like your response - you think!

No one is an unknown, you've always got some information on them. For starts, the pure fact the guy has taken this line means he is definitely not a reg, so you can discount that, and it's pretty obvious he's a fish. If you've got 4 hands on him then he must have posted to play too

My basic rule for fish is that they don't bluff. He's taking a ridic strong line for a fish (raising & pot betting). If you were struggling to fold flop, which is understandable, I think the turn is an easy fold without more information. You might find out he's a crazy maniac and you could have stacked him because he was bluffing, but that happens. There are definitely more passive fish at 2NL than there are aggro ones.

It was definitely worth iso'ing for value BTW.

Pascal, I really appreciate the question you're asking because it is an important educational point for me. Thinking about my own hand is that first level of thinking. I have to advance to thinking about what hands the villain has. Maybe I don't need to do more than that at 2NL (as some have suggested) but I have to do at least that. I also have to look more at the overall game they're playing in the hand and not just the action they're making on a specific street.

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Always do as much as you can. The best bit about 2NL isn't the money - people don't play to earn 50c an hour. It's the fact you can plug leaks and work on your game, try out plays, make mistakes, etc, without losing too much money. This lets you improve your game, but it's a great place to figure stuff out.

Obviously you want to be moving up as fast as possible (to earn more money & because rake becomes less of a relative %) but don't just play 2NL to earn a few bucks so you can tackle 5NL. Work on hand reading in particular, and what hands someone is representing, as most 2NL players are very see through. Find out what happens when you raise/check raise/donk bet into different players, and see if you can then use that knowledge of how they react to your advantage.

Poker is all about adapting - if you knew exactly how someone played (e.g. they raise 100% of donk bets, they c/r 100% of low dry flops vs a c-bet heads up, they stab 100% of the time in uncontested multiway flops on the river), then you could always make money against them by taking the optimal line. Obviously poker is a game of incomplete information but if you are 75% sure that some raises donkbets with complete air then you can earn a lot of money just 3betting the hell out of them. And the best bit is, most of them won't even adapt back

Oh, and something I was told at 2NL which really helped my game and is worth thinking about - always think about what they are representing, and what you are representing.

Pascal,

Again, I really appreciate your time in being so detailed in your response to me. I try to be a thinking person (some days I do better than others ).

This is what has been amazing me about poker (and how I'm playing it). It is a thoughtful game. I'm amazed at how much there is to learn and how learning one thing has such an impact on my game (not in terms of the $$ but more in terms of how I approach my play). What also plays into this is that the thing I learn last month can be "relearned" this month with a whole new perspective. So the layers of play just get more and more complex.

(OK. I just read that back and I sound like a frustrated novelist! )

My point is that 1) this game fascinates me; 2) I love something that keeps me learning new things all the time; 3) I am truly grateful for the fact that people take time to educate and keep us beginners thinking.

(What did you mean by "double post?")

he accidentally posted the same thing twice so he edited the first one and put "double post" since i guess he couldn't delete it

debpes said:

Again, I really appreciate your time in being so detailed in your response to me. I try to be a thinking person (some days I do better than others ).

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Hehe, I have plenty of off days too (I can tell because the graph goes down a lot more quickly than normal )

I learnt so much off forums and people helped me out a lot so I'm just hoping to pass on what other (cleverer) people have tried to tell me

bgomez89 said:

he accidentally posted the same thing twice so he edited the first one and put "double post" since i guess he couldn't delete it

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Nail + head + hammer