$2 NLHE Full Ring: OESD w/ overs in multiway flop w/ a short stacker

rowhousepd

rowhousepd

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From UTG I flop an OESD w/ a backdoor FD facing one loose shortie (40/10/4), and another vanilla player w/ few hands. (Btw, I don't normally raise 3xbb and usually w/ a little better than KQs, but occasionally I do.) It's a nice little draw, but I'm not sure how to play these hands: UTG+2 is inevitably going to bet the rest of his stack, and if I call it will be a for an amt larger than I'd ideally like ... and then we still have the other MP2 villain to worry about.

Assuming in that wide range he could either have and A or any king, maybe Tx or possibly that last J. Those would all warrant a shoves. Since MP2 is more sane, he could easily have connected w/ the flop or hit a pair, or had a non-premium PP. Either way, if he continues he will likely be with something that could have me beat.

Right now, with something like that scenario, I'm at ~40%, UTG+2 is ~35, and MP2 is almost 30%. I guess my question is whether to get involved at all in this hand, and just chk/call and wait to see how they respond first? Or do I come out with a nice bet, fold to any action. I'm just not sure what will get my speculative hand sucked into battle it may not hold up at the end of. Any suggestions?

full tilt poker $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players

MP2: $2.00
CO: $1.34
BTN: $2.03
SB: $1.78
BB: $2.00
Hero (UTG): $2.09
UTG+1: $2.00
UTG+2: $0.42
MP1: $0.93

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is UTG with Q
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K
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Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls $0.06, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.06, 4 folds

Flop: ($0.21) T
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J
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J
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(3 players)
Hero???
 
C

ComplexPlaya

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Just bet like $0.16 or pot, call a shove from shortie
 
xdeucesx

xdeucesx

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honestly at 2nl, i would just fold pre...dont bother messing around with non nut hands, bc you can profitably print money at 2nl just playing premium and nut type hands (Axs)
 
bgomez89

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Aren't you full ring nits supposed to fold KQ utg?
 
takethepain

takethepain

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This, and raise more pre.

I've just completed a full-tilt academy challenge which forced me to change my game up by raising LESS (2x BB) in early position. Why do you feel it is correct to raise more?

On this hand, completely agree with ComplexPlaya, bet 0.16 and call a shove.
 
B

baudib1

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two trains of thought on this

A. Raise more to limit field, harder to extract value postflop OOP when your opponents miss

B. Raise smaller up front to play smaller pots OOP
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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A. Raise more to limit field, harder to extract value postflop OOP when your opponents miss
And because its harder to get all in OOP, since you usually have to take a bet/bet/bet line or check/raise somewhere. Plus your range is generally stronger OOP, and you're not concerned with getting better odds on a steal.

The full tilt academy crap, I'm not sure where they cooked that up.
 
rowhousepd

rowhousepd

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I've just completed a full-tilt academy challenge which forced me to change my game up by raising LESS (2x BB) in early position. Why do you feel it is correct to raise more?

I've seen that same FT Academy video/challenge and I've wondered the same -- and they don't really explain.

two trains of thought on this

A. Raise more to limit field, harder to extract value postflop OOP when your opponents miss

B. Raise smaller up front to play smaller pots OOP

So there's a value to both, but since I'm playing the micros, which option do you guys this is best at that level?
 
takethepain

takethepain

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I've seen that same FT Academy video/challenge and I've wondered the same -- and they don't really explain.



So there's a value to both, but since I'm playing the micros, which option do you guys this is best at that level?

It says in the 'why this task' box

"Chris discussed how he likes to mix up his play by varying raise amounts according to position rather than holdings. In early position, any raise represents a powerful hand, so even a small raise should be enough to convince a weak hand to fold, and if you happen to get re-raised while holding a hand like A-Q, you can get away cheaply."

Personally I will always raise by 3xBB in cash games regardless of position and hand strength in an attempt to disguise what my hand is. In 2NL or 5NL or 10NL I would suspect that people would just call a 2xBB blind regardless of where you are (UTG or not) and all of a sudden you have 5 people playing you. It actually makes sense IMO at higher levels where most people understand position to raise smaller the closer to the BB you are
 
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ComplexPlaya

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And because its harder to get all in OOP, since you usually have to take a bet/bet/bet line or check/raise somewhere. Plus your range is generally stronger OOP, and you're not concerned with getting better odds on a steal.

The full tilt academy crap, I'm not sure where they cooked that up.

It depends on your style and the player(s) you are trying to isolate though doesn't it?

It doesn't matter for 2nl, but for the sake of discussion, if you're raising 30-40% of hands in late position against calling stations / floaters you want to raise less if you're going to play mostly fit/fold post flop right?

I'm not entirely sure because if you're targeting calling stations your profits will come from getting stacks in when you do hit. I guess when you're targeting nits / aggressive 3-bettors you want to make it smaller for sure
 
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