$2 NLHE Full Ring: Massive 5-bet by villain with KK--tilt justified?

Lheticus · Mar 18, 2014

Berserker (a very aggro player) raises to 0.10. Hero raises to 0.25 Villain (who had been playing tight) raises to 1.00. Berserker folds.

Hero 5-bets all in, villain calls.

Villain's hand: KK
Hero's hand: A 10

Result: The predictable, Hero loses. At a table where such a play by villain would have been very unexpected due to how tight he was playing, and the Berserker is raising with basically any two cards, clearly the bet of 1.00 tilted the hero, so the real question is: How difficult would it be for most players to not go on tilt from the sheer suprise and dismay at losing a 12.5x BB raise via folding at that spot? Was "the hero" a supreme idiot, or would many competent players have done the same? Also, the Berserker was basically THE only truly aggressive player at the table. I hope I've given enough information... ^^;

EDIT: It seems I can't edit the title, but there's a typo--it should be "4-bet" not 5-bet. But that was completely the ONLY four bet seen at the table to my knowledge.

Ubercroz · Mar 18, 2014

I dont think you should ever get tilted by preflop action. it is what it is.

el_magiciann · Mar 18, 2014

I think you have found your mistake here by what you wrote, and i think also you learn your lesson, so you don't have to go on tilt here, you should be happy of knowledge you got!

skrsh76 · Mar 18, 2014

I am not sure why you went on tilt.. The normal adjustment to someone playing Loose Aggressive is tighten up and I don't think AT is tight enough especially with folks to act behind you. if someone 4 bets you after you have been playing tight is showing some serious strength. So most hands I would fold.. up-till JJ I would surely fold.. QQ & AK I can probably call and play and only shove AI with AA and KK..

Lheticus · Mar 18, 2014

skrsh76 said:
I am not sure why you went on tilt.. The normal adjustment to someone playing Loose Aggressive is tighten up and I don't think AT is tight enough especially with folks to act behind you. if someone 4 bets you after you have been playing tight is showing some serious strength. So most hands I would fold.. up-till JJ I would surely fold.. QQ & AK I can probably call and play and only shove AI with AA and KK..

As I tried to explain but perhaps didn't emphasize, I went on tilt because by the time the $1 4-bet happened, I had already put 25 cents--12 and a half big blinds--in on that round. I know I'm supposed to treat every action as independent of all previous actions, but after that large a commitment, factoring in the fact that very few pots at that table were even getting to the size that I had already made it reach, I felt pot comitted. There had been literally NO four-bets up to that point, so to see one shocked me a great deal. And...my attitude toward loose aggressive players at that moment was "this is where your actually significant pots are going to come from" as everyone else was basically playing tight--pots were rarely reaching even 20 cents. To have an opportunity such as the Berserker raising into me when I have legit cards slip away on such a grossly unexpected turn...it definitely was jarring enough to me to put me on tilt.

Keith_MM · Mar 18, 2014

so a tight villain 4bets you and you have a pretty trashy hand now compared to a tight players 4bet range . This is the easiest fold out there. 12bb is nothing , you are no way near pot committed. what range do you think he was 4betting with ?

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
equity Win Tie
MP2 71.20% 70.54% 0.65% { QQ+, AKs, AcKh }
MP3 28.80% 28.15% 0.65% { ATs }

This shows why it should have been a super easy fold for you . Why put any more money in when you are highly likely to be crushed by villains range

Lheticus · Mar 18, 2014

Keith_MM said:
so a tight villain 4bets you and you have a pretty trashy hand now compared to a tight players 4bet range . This is the easiest fold out there. 12bb is nothing , you are no way near pot committed. what range do you think he was 4betting with ?

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 71.20% 70.54% 0.65% { QQ+, AKs, AcKh }
MP3 28.80% 28.15% 0.65% { ATs }

This shows why it should have been a super easy fold for you . Why put any more money in when you are highly likely to be crushed by villains range

You submitted this only 9 minutes after my last reply--did you manage to read it? Particularly about pots only occasionally getting above 20 cents. With the pot already above 30 cents, I couldn't emotionally deal with not winning this pot--especially not by folding to an *out of freaking nowhere* 4-bet in a game where literally nobody had four-better up to that point.

luckyhearts · Mar 18, 2014

I have the same trouble with aggressive players in HU games...when they finally DO get a hand, I don't put them on it often enough, end up paying them.
Bullies get hands too, it just aint fair!

Keith_MM · Mar 18, 2014

Of course i read the post . Jesus .....you say there have been no 4bets and pretty passive play up to this point ....doesnt that make it HIGHLY LIKELY that the villain had a super premium hand.
learn to evaluate your equities in hands. EQuilab form pokerstrategy will help you with this .

for example for you to be flipping with villain villain would need to be playing this sort of range .

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 49.48% 46.00% 3.48% { 77+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QJo, JTo, AcKh }
MP3 50.52% 47.04% 3.48% { ATs }

thats 14% of hands. You say he's been playing pretty tight , so effectively he would have to be doing this with a large proportion of his normal hands. If you can't give up on a pot when villains are screaming out to you that you are way behind you are going to lose large sums of money playing poker.

Ubercroz · Mar 18, 2014

Am i missing something? you got it in with KK, right? good deal.

The guy who 3bet you got it in with a worse hand, awesome.

whats the problem?

Keith_MM · Mar 18, 2014

nah ...he had the trashy AT and super tight villain amazingly 4betting out of the blue on a passsive table surprisingly shows up with KK.

Lheticus · Mar 18, 2014

Keith_MM said:
Of course i read the post . Jesus .....you say there have been no 4bets and pretty passive play up to this point ....doesnt that make it HIGHLY LIKELY that the villain had a super premium hand.
learn to evaluate your equities in hands. EQuilab form pokerstrategy will help you with this .

for example for you to be flipping with villain villain would need to be playing this sort of range .

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 49.48% 46.00% 3.48% { 77+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QJo, JTo, AcKh }
MP3 50.52% 47.04% 3.48% { ATs }

thats 14% of hands. You say he's been playing pretty tight , so effectively he would have to be doing this with a large proportion of his normal hands. If you can't give up on a pot when villains are screaming out to you that you are way behind you are going to lose large sums of money playing poker.

Clearly you didn't read the post asking if you read my previous post well enough--I explained that I was on idiotically flaming tilt and couldn't deal with losing what was supposed to have been the first actually significant pot that I'd sat down to at that table. I knew he almost definitely had premium, knew that I was almost definitely going to lose, but I was on too bad a tilt from having the opportunity slip away to care. Literally none of the things you said were taken into consideration. I know it was stupid to do, the question I originally asked was: How stupid was this, considering I was on tilt, and for the answer to that, consider how easily would most people tilt having the literally only significant pot hand you've managed to play so far slip away from you THAT EASILY?!

Ubercroz said:
Am i missing something? you got it in with KK, right? good deal.

The guy who 3bet you got it in with a worse hand, awesome.

whats the problem?

The problem is, you're getting who was who wrong. I was the one 3-betting, villain was the one with KK.

Ubercroz · Mar 18, 2014

oic

yeah fold there

Keith_MM · Mar 18, 2014

Lheticus said:
You submitted this only 9 minutes after my last reply--did you manage to read it? Particularly about pots only occasionally getting above 20 cents. With the pot already above 30 cents, I couldn't emotionally deal with not winning this pot--especially not by folding to an *out of freaking nowhere* 4-bet in a game where literally nobody had four-better up to that point.

hmmmm lets see did i deal with any of the points you mention in this post.

pots only getting above 20 cents occasionally , seem to remember saying that it was a passive tight table and that bearing this in mind for the villain to 4bet you he must be playing a super tight range and therefore a premium hand against which your hand fares badly , and that for you to be flipping with villain he would have to be 4betting a 14% range.

If you can't deal emotionally with being 4bet and you can't fold a relatively trashy hand vs his perceived range with relatively little invested in the pot you are destined to keep busting your deposits. perhaps you can show in the previous posts where you "knew he almost definitely had premium, knew that I was almost definitely going to lose, but I was on too bad a tilt from having the opportunity slip away to care".

In fact look at your original post and the actual question you asked " How difficult would it be for most players to not go on tilt from the sheer suprise and dismay at losing a 12.5x BB raise via folding at that spot? Was "the hero" a supreme idiot, or would many competent players have done the same?" . I showed you how a competent player looks at the situation , works a range out for the villain , calculates a rough equity for his hand vs villains range and then in the light of that makes a decision how to proceed. So yes to answer your question , you were a supreme idiot and a competent player would have easily folded and moved on.

If you can't deal with folding 12bb in light of a villain showing you that you are likely beaten you really should consider whether real money NL poker is for you.

Lheticus · Mar 18, 2014

Keith_MM said:
hmmmm lets see did i deal with any of the points you mention in this post.

pots only getting above 20 cents occasionally , seem to remember saying that it was a passive tight table and that bearing this in mind for the villain to 4bet you he must be playing a super tight range and therefore a premium hand against which your hand fares badly , and that for you to be flipping with villain he would have to be 4betting a 14% range.

If you can't deal emotionally with being 4bet and you can't fold a relatively trashy hand vs his perceived range with relatively little invested in the pot you are destined to keep busting your deposits. perhaps you can show in the previous posts where you "knew he almost definitely had premium, knew that I was almost definitely going to lose, but I was on too bad a tilt from having the opportunity slip away to care".

In fact look at your original post and the actual question you asked " How difficult would it be for most players to not go on tilt from the sheer suprise and dismay at losing a 12.5x BB raise via folding at that spot? Was "the hero" a supreme idiot, or would many competent players have done the same?" . I showed you how a competent player looks at the situation , works a range out for the villain , calculates a rough equity for his hand vs villains range and then in the light of that makes a decision how to proceed. So yes to answer your question , you were a supreme idiot and a competent player would have easily folded and moved on.

If you can't deal with folding 12bb in light of a villain showing you that you are likely beaten you really should consider whether real money NL poker is for you.

Well...okay. I had been quite emotional today...if I'd realized it before going on, honestly I'd probably not have played at all today. My emotions can be extremely volatile--and this wouldn't be the first time that they have led me to be a supreme idiot. Clearly, for my next session I need to check whether I'm in a playing-capable state with greater scrutiny. I conjecture that you were trying to be nice before--if I'm correct, you don't need to worry. If I deserve harsh criticism, anyone on here can be as harsh as they see fit to be.

Keith_MM · Mar 18, 2014

exactly , that is why people are continually told not to play tired or when ill , when they are distracted, when they are drunk , or when they are emotional because they don't process the info correctly and don't make the correct decisions.

Arjonius · Mar 19, 2014

It's a pretty safe bet you'll hinder your progress up your learning curve if you don't exercise enough self-discipline not to play when you're unable / unlikely to play your A game. Even better, although harder, is improving your self-control so you tilt less easily / frequently / severely.

As for 5bet shoving on this hand, what's the problem? any 5bet pot commits you, and you're favored unless his calling range is tighter than QQ+ AK.

$2 NLHE Full Ring: Massive 5-bet by villain with KK--tilt justified?

Lheticus

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