$2 NLHE Full Ring: KK vs either nuts or nothing

Vini_lepoker

Vini_lepoker

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poker stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players
Poker Tools by CardRunners - Hand Details

CO: $0.66 (33 bb)
BTN: $2.16 (108 bb)
Hero (SB): $2 (100 bb)
BB: $2 (100 bb)
MP1: $1.18 (59 bb)
MP2: $2.10 (105 bb)
MP3: $1.47 (73.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K♣ K♦
3 folds, CO calls $0.02, BTN raises to $0.08, Hero raises to $0.24, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.16

Flop: ($0.52) 5♥ 7♥ Q♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.30, BTN calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.12) 2♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $1.46 and is all-in, BTN calls $1.46

River: ($4.04) Q♠ (2 players, 1 is all-in)




My question is: What should I've done on the turn?
The player is not very good and I thought that the would probably call me with worse (Qx, flush draw). But if I checked, he would have control over the hand, if othe bets I will be in a very difficult spot and would fold the possible best hand to Qx, if he checks behind I will still have to make a large bet on the river and go all in most of the times.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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If you're going to shove the turn, bet more on the flop so it's not an over bet.

This line is fine, or you can half pot 3x. Against fish or bad regs, getting it in by the turn is probably preferred.

There is an argument to checking the turn to induce a bluff. But this isn't a particularly floaty flop, so I just play it as you did.

But if we had bet half pot on the flop, and villain had sticky stats (low fold to 3bet, cbet stats) we could check/jam.
 
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roygor

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In my opinion is-> if he had the Q with good kicker...it is almost impossible for him to fold at any time.

It is one of these hands that you get unlucky.
 
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pyrotheassassin

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I agree with your line, but larger bet sizes could have been used to prevent the turn overbet. A turn overbet could fold out the weaker hands, like 7x, 5x, and FD that you want in the pot against you. If you can keep weaker hands in your opponent's range when the big money goes in, the better it is for you. That being said, one of the worst cards came off on the river and you got unlucky, but you were most likely ahead on the turn when the money went in. According to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker, you gained here, even if you lost the hand.

A more fundamental point here is that this hand IS NOT a nuts or nothing situation when the money goes in on the turn. There is no action from your opponent to believe he has the nuts, partially due to you taking the initiative and not providing him a chance to tip his hand. If this was truly a nuts or nothing hand, you are thoroughly trapped with your KK based on your betting action when he has the nuts, and he will fold all non-nuts. Your range is not polarized into nuts or nothing, either. Also, note that the nuts on the turn (a set of queens) is up against two flush draws, gutshot straight draws (A3, A4, 48, 89), and belly buster straight draws (34, 46, 68), all of which are drawing to beat the current nuts (some of these flush draws can improve simultaneously with the set of queens going full).

Be careful assuming nuts or nothing too early in a hand. This assumption could cause you to call too tightly and make many folding mistakes with hands like top pair, low two pair, etc. I would recommend you review your database and try to determine if you have more hands where you have made this assumption. You may find that you are making mistakes you were unaware of with this assumption.
 
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John A

John A

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Plan your bet sizing better... either bet more on the flop, or CRAI on the flop or bet small, bet small. But you just need to plan your sizing for the streets to come.
 
Vini_lepoker

Vini_lepoker

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A more fundamental point here is that this hand IS NOT a nuts or nothing situation when the money goes in on the turn. There is no action from your opponent to believe he has the nuts, partially due to you taking the initiative and not providing him a chance to tip his hand. If this was truly a nuts or nothing hand, you are thoroughly trapped with your KK based on your betting action when he has the nuts, and he will fold all non-nuts. Your range is not polarized into nuts or nothing, either. Also, note that the nuts on the turn (a set of queens) is up against two flush draws, gutshot straight draws (A3, A4, 48, 89), and belly buster straight draws (34, 46, 68), all of which are drawing to beat the current nuts (some of these flush draws can improve simultaneously with the set of queens going full).

Be careful assuming nuts or nothing too early in a hand. This assumption could cause you to call too tightly and make many folding mistakes with hands like top pair, low two pair, etc. I would recommend you review your database and try to determine if you have more hands where you have made this assumption. You may find that you are making mistakes you were unaware of with this assumption.

Thanks for the opinion, I'm just not very creative with titles lol. By nothing I meant draws or Qx, which is actually something but I'm know I'm quite ahead of that. I was almost sure he wouldn't fold this kind of hands.
Reading you guys comments, yeah, should've made closer to pot on the flop.
 
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joe777

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Bet more on the flop then evaluate the turn.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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Plan your bet sizing better... either bet more on the flop, or CRAI on the flop or bet small, bet small. But you just need to plan your sizing for the streets to come.


I never do oversize bets in my game.. do you think it's very useful?
 
jashiggs

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I think the advice of betting more on the flop is good and with a decision in mind that so long as the turn is not another Q an Ace or a heart, the rest of the money is going in and the villain is getting the price to call. In this instance you will have gained max value for the flop bet if he folds here and if he then folds the turn he was never going to call the overbet anyway :)
 
Romario2223

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with KK better go all in preflop .
Bet more on the flop
 
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GWU73

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Honestly, you played it fine. You created an SPR <4 with KK. You are almost never going to fold post flop with an overpair vs likely draws, and lower pairs. You will run into the odd AA, or lose to a strange hand. It's poker.
 
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