$2 NLHE Full Ring: KK vs 6bet preflop

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TheArnie

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poker stars $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players - View hand 2843030
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG+1: $2.00
MP1: $6.09
MP2: $2.28
Hero (CO): $2.35
BTN: $2.00
SB: $3.21
BB: $2.03
UTG: $2.03

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is CO with K
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K
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2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.06, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.18, 3 folds, MP1 raises to $0.50, Hero raises to $1.20, MP1 raises to $6.09 all in, 1 fold

Hero folds. I had faced some 6bets with KK at tables before, and they always ended up with KK vs AA situation. Villain wasn't misbehaving and for me seemed like a regular TAG.
Should I had 5bet all in? Could it be that villain read 2.5x 5bet as a sign of weakness? Is folding KK ever OK?
 
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DunningKruger

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Don't 5bet/fold kings at 2NL with 117 blinds preflop. You already decided to stick in more than half your stack, and if this was AK less than 1/10th of instances and AA in every other case then pot odds still dictate a call here. Folding KK pre can be okay in certain uncommon circumstances but you (or at least we) don't have nearly enough of a read on your opponent to decide that this situation might be one of them.
 
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TheArnie

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Don't 5bet/fold kings at 2NL with 117 blinds preflop. You already decided to stick in more than half your stack, and if this was AK less than 1/10th of instances and AA in every other case then pot odds still dictate a call here. Folding KK pre can be okay in certain uncommon circumstances but you (or at least we) don't have nearly enough of a read on your opponent to decide that this situation might be one of them.

No way he had AK. In best case he'd have atleast KK. So if there are 6 combos of AA and 1 combo of KK, would it still be right to shove 5bet or call 6brt
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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This month i'm running at 8bb/100 over 17.5k hands @ 2NL

My advice is never fold KK with no reads.
 
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DunningKruger

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No way he had AK. In best case he'd have atleast KK. So if there are 6 combos of AA and 1 combo of KK, would it still be right to shove 5bet or call 6brt

5bet shove KK into a range that you're adamant is KK+? What the heck would be the point of that. Why did you even 5bet at all if that's what you pegged him for at that point.

The first thing you need is to figure out what you're trying to do in this hand (and then kindly explain it to the board). If you think you're folding out chops it ain't happening. If you think villain might have taken your "2.5x 5bet as a sign of weakness" then KK+ in that case wouldn't be all he's ever going to have.

So now that you've decided this is KK+, we do some quick math with the help of any online odds calculator and see that, yes, even when we are crushed the vast majority of the time and chopping that 1 time out of 7 we happen to get lucky, we still have to call it off vs his shove simply because we've already decided to shovel so much of our stack into the pot in order to find out if we're good or not.

In short, there's really no way to justify a fold.
 
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CactusCat

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It's a coinflip between him showing up with aces or queens, and if he ever does this with AK (though I agree it's unlikely), then this is at least a breakeven call in the long run.
 
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fooks

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I would have never got rid of KK.if you bet 6 bet, then why not go Allin,thereby to disarm the enemy
 
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TheArnie

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I seem to agree that shoveling 5bet would be better after this analysis. However, I narrowed his range to KK+ after he 6bet. It seems like nevet folding KK pre at 2NL should be more +EV move in long term, correct?
 
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TheArnie

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It's a coinflip between him showing up with aces or queens, and if he ever does this with AK (though I agree it's unlikely), then this is at least a breakeven call in the long run.

As far as I spectated him, I'd expect him to flat 4bet with QQ
 
Aces2w1n

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U forget its 2nl n its huge chance ppl do random sh with Ax
 
Trabendo_daze

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Even if you are KK vs. AA remember you still are about 19% to win.
 
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erlanditas

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You should go ALL IN, even if you are against aces you should risk, maybe he was with AK
 
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hffjd2000

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Why fold? You are already committed.

Aside from above, he might have a random hand aside from what you are expecting.
 
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MinhANguyen

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Just 5-bet shove kings. You actually might get QQ/AK to make a hero-fold, as 5-betting as opposed to 5-bet shoving looks really strong. You can't really fold here given the pot odds. And you should never be folding KK preflop unless there is some crazy action like a cold 5-bet/6-bet full ring, or Villain is a 20/1 passive fish or 10/8 nit.

He will show up with AA here a lot, but you will see AK and maybe some spazzed out QQ. Also some random spaz like Ax. Some deep-stacker manaic actually 7-bet shoved AJo on me once SB vs BTN 210bb effective stacks.
 
limagolf

limagolf

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Never but never fold KK pre-flop in NL2!!
 
John A

John A

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Never say never.

And AKs at these stakes will absolutely stack off for this amount. Along w/ some other random stuff enough of the time. You gots what we calls de short term results oriented thinkin'. It's the devil.
 
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Jreece18

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Stats on the villain? I'm surprised you even got a 6bet - 2NL people are usually shoving way before that. Personally never folding KK preflop, especially after 5betting! Too often at 2NL you'll be facing an absolutely donkey that you're happy to get it all in pre with KK.
 
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TheArnie

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Stats on the villain? I'm surprised you even got a 6bet - 2NL people are usually shoving way before that. Personally never folding KK preflop, especially after 5betting! Too often at 2NL you'll be facing an absolutely donkey that you're happy to get it all in pre with KK.

Got no pokertracker or HEM, but I'd approximate it about 15/10 3bet - 3/4 percent.
 
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bbiase

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Don't 5bet/fold kings at 2NL with 117 blinds preflop. You already decided to stick in more than half your stack, and if this was AK less than 1/10th of instances and AA in every other case then pot odds still dictate a call here. Folding KK pre can be okay in certain uncommon circumstances but you (or at least we) don't have nearly enough of a read on your opponent to decide that this situation might be one of them.

This.

Should've stacked off on the 5-bet FOR VALUE. If he called and showed down AA than it's all right, it happens. Never raise leaving less than a two thirds of your stack behind without shoving. You should be dying to stack off, given how deep the dude is. If you were like 300 or 400 BBs than it would be an okay play, to 5-bet and tank fold to a 6-bet all in for 3 buy ins.

Analysing the call: You had 1-4 for a call, you need 25% equity to call here. Unless he absolutely for sure had aces, it's a bad fold. Give him a range of AA -> 19%. range of AA, KK > 23% (breakeven call). Range of AA, KK, QQ -> 50% equity (CLEAR CUT CALL. ANY FOLD HERE IS A MISTAKE). Range of AA, KK, QQ, AK -> 57% equity (MUST CALL HERE).
 
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