$2 NLHE Full Ring: Jam this river with 2nd nut flush?

I think the river jam is standard, but maybe I'm wrong. also what about the rest of the hand? 3b pre? flop Cbet seems obvious. check turn?

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP+1: 116 BB (VPIP: 14.86, PFR: 10.81, 3Bet Preflop: 6.90, hands: 75)
CO: 198 BB (VPIP: 30.67, PFR: 12.00, 3Bet Preflop: 12.12, Hands: 75)
BTN: 70.5 BB (VPIP: 38.60, PFR: 26.32, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 57)
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 18.97, PFR: 10.34, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 59)
Hero (BB): 122 BB
UTG: 288.5 BB (VPIP: 43.86, PFR: 12.28, 3Bet Preflop: 3.85, Hands: 57)
UTG+1: 74 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 5.45, Hands: 145)
MP: 120 BB (VPIP: 19.31, PFR: 5.17, 3Bet Preflop: 2.83, Hands: 239)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:club: Q:heart:

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 2.5 BB, fold, Hero raises to 9 BB, BTN calls 6.5 BB

Flop: (18.5 BB, 2 players) J:heart: Q:club: 4:heart:
Hero bets 12 BB, BTN calls 12 BB

Turn: (42.5 BB, 2 players) 2:heart:
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: (42.5 BB, 2 players) A:heart:
Hero bets 101 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 49.5 BB and is all-in

This looks fine. Getting called by Jx twice seems optimistic, so checking to induce seems about right.

It looks right, especially given opponent who knows that aggression is mostly air, but question. Why is river jam standard?

I think you played it fine. I like the check on the turn

I like your play post BTN vs BB.
Cbet is as you said it's obvious.
I prefer continuing betting the turn and getting value from Qx,Jx and some kind of KT T9 type of hands.But check seems reasonable and let villain value himself.
But I don't like too much the river jam.There isn't too many worst value hands that will call you.
You block the Qh,Ah and Jh are on the board.So you are getting max value only from some Tx with Th and some or T9/T8 with the 9h/8h.And some hero calls.
But villain could easily have the Kh in his range(but not too many K's).
So as you checked the turn I would like to check river and give him room to bluff.
But I prefer jam turn or bet small turn and jam river.

braveslice said:

Why is river jam standard?

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I guess I don’t actually know that it is standard but my guess in the moment is that it was the standard play because pot has 42bb and villain has 49bb so it’s about a pot sized jam and I have the 2nd nuts. It feels like a jam makes my hand look as bluffy as possible to make it more likely to get heroed by 2pair or a low heart etc. and if I bet smaller I’m gonna call his raise so if he has Kh I’m losing max anyways.


I could pose this question a different way: what is the best river action?

Oddly, I would have folded the hand pre, but I'm a nit. I like the 3-bet pre, better than a call though. C-bet is standard on the flop, but the call is a little surprising. Not that many hands that hit the Villain's range. Villain re-raises AA KK, QQ, and JJ so what is left? Flush draws?

I like the check slowing down and one has to wonder if Villain would check a made Ax flush to induce your flop raise. That mystery is solved when the A hits the river. Not that many K high flush combos, so I push the river since Villain's stack is just over the pot size.

TheBigFinn said:

Oddly, I would have folded the hand pre, but I'm a nit. I like the 3-bet pre, better than a call though.

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Oh wow you are a nit if you would fold KQ in the BB to s Button raise. We gotta fix that!


Facing a 2.5bb bet we need to call 1.5bb and pot has 4.0 bb so we’re getting 2.66:1 pot odds. We need 27% raw equity for a break even call. Almost every hand has that but we can fold the worst hands due to not realizing all of our equity OOP without the betting lead.


KQ is well above that threshold vs any btn range (I was 3b for value). You can call with like 87o any A and basically anything suited and have plenty of equity vs button.


Even vs a tighter UTG range you can still profitably call with any pair any 2 broadways and suited connectors. Plus...playing poker is fun. Folding isn’t fun. Start mixing it up! Cheers and happy holidays!

missjacki said:

Oh wow you are a nit if you would fold KQ in the BB to s Button raise. We gotta fix that!


Facing a 2.5bb bet we need to call 1.5bb and pot has 4.0 bb so we’re getting 2.66:1 pot odds. We need 27% raw equity for a break even call. Almost every hand has that but we can fold the worst hands due to not realizing all of our equity OOP without the betting lead.


KQ is well above that threshold vs any btn range (I was 3b for value). You can call with like 87o any A and basically anything suited and have plenty of equity vs button.


Even vs a tighter UTG range you can still profitably call with any pair any 2 broadways and suited connectors. Plus...playing poker is fun. Folding isn’t fun. Start mixing it up! Cheers and happy holidays!

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I admitted it was nitty. The problem is that you are out of position and afraid that you are dominated when a king or queen hits. Like lots of things in poker it depends on who and how often they are raising. As I look back Hero has 75 hands on Villain who is raising over a 1/3 of the time in 6-handed game. Villain looks a little loose in the small sample,


In general, I'd rather 3-bet then call in the blinds. You gain more information and and take the offensive. Calling to hit a good pair with an OK kicker or straight draw is no fun. I agree calling with say 87s in the BB is good, You know where you are on the flop and Villain doesn't.


I assume you agree with the rest.


Have a happy

TheBigFinn said:

The problem is that you are out of position and afraid that you are dominated when a king or queen hits.

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If we assume standard 40% raising range by button, K hits on the flop, KQ is dominated by 12 combos, and is dominating 57 combos, dominated 17% of the time. When hero 3bets, and we assume KJs and AKo call, KQ is dominated by 9 combos, and is dominating 3 combos, dominated 75% of the time. I would be more worried being dominated in 3bet pot. Not saying that you can or should not 3bet.

"Originally Posted by TheBigFinn
The problem is that you are out of position and afraid that you are dominated when a king or queen hits."

braveslice said:

If we assume standard 40% raising range by button, K hits on the flop, KQ is dominated by 12 combos, and is dominating 57 combos, dominated 17% of the time. When hero 3bets, and we assume KJs and AKo call, KQ is dominated by 9 combos, and is dominating 3 combos, dominated 75% of the time. I would be more worried being dominated in 3bet pot. Not saying that you can or should not 3bet.

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I may have made it appear to simple. The reasons to 3-bet are more varied than just the fear of being dominated. You are correct that when you 3-bet and are called, you are more likely to be losing when you have a king comes on the flop AND Villain holds a king. I'm not sure there is a "standard 40% raising range by the button," but lets go with that. It is true the wider the raising range the more Kxs there are in Villain's range. It is also true there are many more junk hands that won't call the 3-bet.


Let's guess Villain raises AA, KK, QQ, AK or about 1/5% his range, calls another 8.5% and folds the other 30%. 75% of the time Villain folds and Hero wins 4BB and ~4% of the time Hero raise folds and loses 9BB, The other 21% of the time Villain calls. If hero and we see a flop with hero a 40/60 dog. I Hero folded every flop He'd net .75*4 minus .25*9 for a net 1.75 BB. Folding is a 0.5 BB loss, so perhaps you are right, one would be better to always 3-bet fold to a 4-bet and then on the flop fold to everything but made hands. Eventually the button will realize this, but in the abstract it works.


If Hero calls and then folds the flop, he loses 2.5 BBs. How often does that happen? To make a pair one has to hit one of 3 of the remaining unknown 50 cards. or 1 of 49 or then 1 of 48, but let's round it to 18% chance of hitting a pair of Kings and another 18% chance Hero hits a pair of queens. There are straight draws and two pair hands, so lets just assume Hero folds on 60% of the flops.


Now is where the problem comes in. Is Hero's KK good and if it is how much equity can he realize from the SB. Are you willing to play for stacks with just a pair of kings?


Is Villain going to fold if you lead out the flop? Given her huge range she likely will fold at least 1/2 of the time. Hero wins 2.5BB 20% of the time which balances some of the 60% of the Hero loses 2.5BB. The question is, "Can Hero realize enough equity the 20% of the time he sees a turn card to make the total play worth more than -0.5BB?" It is darn hard to do.


If Villain re-raises does Hero call? What happens when a flush draw is on board? What if the flop is all low cards or all high cards? What happens if there is an ace on the flop? Villain has a ton of aces in her range. In short, Villain knows what her hand is and can slow play, re-raise or fold if Hero leads into her. It is the classic value trap. When Villain calls the donk bet and there is a nothing burger on the turn, does Hero bet again? If Hero checks and Villain bets what does Hero do?


In the end Hero wins the medium size pots when his top pair good kicker is good, but loses big pots to Villain's TPTK hands. It has become a high variance situation, which I prefer to avoid. It is an interesting situation though and I think you have convinced me to 3-bet more with OK hands.


Cheers

I think you're giving the button ranges way too much credit. I disgree that they have a ton of Ax in their range. Use a range visualizer like Equilab to see just how many hands are in a 40-50% range but here's a spoiler: it includes hands like 63s and 98o, Q4s etc. (BTW when it folds to the button if they aren't raising at least 40% of hands they're a nit). Plus when they flat our 3b they are capped which removes a ton of the hands that would dominate us.

I think checking to induce on the river is better personally. What will our hand look like to the V then? It will look like a 3bet, then a cbet, then give up.

Your opponent will think they have the best hand, move in, then get the bad news.


We force them to actually have a hand to call with in this scenario. And they checked back turn as well, so what can they have here?


I like the rest of the hand though. I def like the 3b pre.