$2 NLHE Full Ring: i got called a donk after this hand?

AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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pokerstars Hand #85900264800: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2012/09/08 19:42:51 ET
Table 'Indiana IV' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: mastal88 ($2.32 in chips)
Seat 2: wongvorakul ($3 in chips)
Seat 3: troesma ($2.37 in chips)
Seat 4: meettokill ($7.74 in chips)
Seat 6: Kerberus94 ($2 in chips)
Seat 7: and 07335 ($2.19 in chips)
Seat 8: AlfieAA ($1.94 in chips)
Seat 9: BexTeP ($2 in chips)
meettokill: posts small blind $0.01
DavidHolic: is sitting out
Kerberus94: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AlfieAA [Ad Qs]
DavidHolic leaves the table
and 07335: folds
AlfieAA: raises $0.04 to $0.06
and 07335 leaves the table
BexTeP: folds
mastal88: folds
wongvorakul: folds
troesma: folds
meettokill: folds
Kerberus94: calls $0.04
*** FLOP *** [Jh 8c Qd]
Kerberus94: checks
AlfieAA: bets $0.08
Kerberus94: calls $0.08
*** TURN *** [Jh 8c Qd] [Jc]
fraserJJJ joins the table at seat #5
Kerberus94: checks
AlfieAA: bets $0.16
Kerberus94: calls $0.16
*** RIVER *** [Jh 8c Qd Jc] [Ts]
Kerberus94: bets $0.40
AlfieAA: calls $0.40
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Kerberus94: shows [Td Ks] (two pair, Jacks and Tens)
AlfieAA: shows [Ad Qs] (two pair, Queens and Jacks)
AlfieAA collected $1.36 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.41 | Rake $0.05
Board [Jh 8c Qd Jc Ts]
Seat 1: mastal88 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: wongvorakul folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: troesma (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: meettokill (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Kerberus94 (big blind) showed [Td Ks] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Tens
Seat 7: and 07335 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: AlfieAA showed [Ad Qs] and won ($1.36) with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 9: BexTeP folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
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doomasiggy

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Not sure if we should be raising AQo UTG+1 full ring. Better cash game players will correct me tho.
 
AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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yeah, it was quite a nitty table so i was hoping to either steal the blinds (0.3 cents lol, how sad am i) or get called by 1 player...if he reraised i prob would have folded.....however, i observed the previous hand he played and he raised out of position with ace high and min raised on the river.....the other guy called and won with a pair..........and he has the cheek to call me a donk haha......so i knew he was a crap player and was glad to be up against him
 
twoturntablez

twoturntablez

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Dont post results, its harder to be objective knowing the outcome of the hand.

I think AQoff utg+1 is a raise. If youre on a really aggressive table then perhaps you can fold because youll be OOP and pretty much having to play fit or fold post flop, I dont think you can limp here. I think the raise size is fine too, you are early and may be given credit for a strong hand, Id probably fold to a 3bet in that position and the smaller raise size lets you get away from it relatively easily.

The flop is a double edged sword with the straight draw, it would be nice to see the villains stats in the hand history. Good bet size on the turn, with his check call hes not repping the jack.

Difficult to raise the river bet, NH well played, hes now repping the straight and wants to call you a donk for not beleiving him with the scary board.
 
JCgrind

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this is fine. although against this obv lolbad player, id be betting more on the flop and turn, def just flatting his donkbet OTR
 
JCgrind

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Please explain to me why you're not raising!

AQo can be a fold instead of a raise from EP in some games. however its always going to be good for an open raise at the super micros
 
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nmaher18

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AQo can be a fold instead of a raise from EP in some games. however its always going to be good for an open raise at the super micros

Totally agree it can be a fold at a table full of pro's or serious regs at higher stakes but at 2nl never!
 
AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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Dont post results, its harder to be objective knowing the outcome of the hand.

I think AQoff utg+1 is a raise. If youre on a really aggressive table then perhaps you can fold because youll be OOP and pretty much having to play fit or fold post flop, I dont think you can limp here. I think the raise size is fine too, you are early and may be given credit for a strong hand, Id probably fold to a 3bet in that position and the smaller raise size lets you get away from it relatively easily.

The flop is a double edged sword with the straight draw, it would be nice to see the villains stats in the hand history. Good bet size on the turn, with his check call hes not repping the jack.

Difficult to raise the river bet, NH well played, hes now repping the straight and wants to call you a donk for not beleiving him with the scary board.

cheers man, this is my first hand ive posted so will try and leave out the result next time.......is it not better if you see the result though so you get the full picture, especially for a beginner?.......thanks for the analysis, yeah i would have deffo folded to a 3bet pre flop...and yeah i sensed he never had a straight, had him on a jack....
 
AlfieAA

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this is fine. although against this obv lolbad player, id be betting more on the flop and turn, def just flatting his donkbet OTR

how much more would you have raised on the flop and river.......haha @lolbad
 
AlfieAA

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Totally agree it can be a fold at a table full of pro's or serious regs at higher stakes but at 2nl never!

on my starting hand chart it told me to fold aq in early position, but the table was passive so i just went for it
 
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nmaher18

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I don't see why you're saying he's lolbad! He defends his blind with k10(as you should once in a while) hits an open ender, calls 'cos the bets not big enough(twice) then bets river (mistake imo) but I dont think any of that suggests lolbad! we made more mistakes than him by not betting big enough on flop and turn. whoever called us a donk is prob just an idiot angry that his 2 pair lost to a better 2 pair!
 
AlfieAA

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@nmaher18 i dont think he was getting the right odds to call his open ender....and if he was going for implied odds then why only bet 0.40......
 
JCgrind

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cheers man, this is my first hand ive posted so will try and leave out the result next time.......is it not better if you see the result though so you get the full picture, especially for a beginner?.......thanks for the analysis, yeah i would have deffo folded to a 3bet pre flop...and yeah i sensed he never had a straight, had him on a jack....

no, because we shouldnt be concerned about whether or not we won the hand. we are concerned with making the best possible decisions in any given scenario with the information we DO have. if we were in your spot, we wouldnt know what holecards our opponent has when were making a decision, so dont give us the advantage :p

even if he shows up with a straight this one time, it doesnt matter, because we will always call the river here because he doesnt have a straight, and we have him beat the vast majority of the time

how much more would you have raised on the flop and river.......haha @lolbad

i assume you mean how much would i have bet on the flop and turn lol? iono, board is drawy, and like i said, opponents are lolbad. if theyre calling 60% of pot theyre calling 90% lol. i prob make it 10c into the 12c pot OTF, which makes pot 32c OTT, where id bet like 24c or something

on my starting hand chart it told me to fold aq in early position, but the table was passive so i just went for it

this would be correct, but your opponents at 2NL are going to be so incredibly bad that you can make -EV decisions preflop because you have such an advantage postflop. as a general rule, i wouldnt recommend this while youre learning, but AQo is still such a monster that its only so slightly -EV to raise in EP preflop, and most definitely +EV in a 2NL game. you just need to make sure you dont get into bad habbits.
good to see that youre adjusting and opening more hands on a super tight table though.

I don't see why you're saying he's lolbad! He defends his blind with k10(as you should once in a while) hits an open ender, calls 'cos the bets not big enough(twice) then bets river (mistake imo) but I dont think any of that suggests lolbad! we made more mistakes than him by not betting big enough on flop and turn. whoever called us a donk is prob just an idiot angry that his 2 pair lost to a better 2 pair!

okay, well dont take this personally, but heres how it goes;

hero opens from EP. villain is OOP w/ KTo.

PREFLOP
heros range crushes KTo so he should fold pre. villain cannot profitable call this OOP. every K in heros range has a better kicker, there probably isnt even a T in heros range, but if there is its going to be AT, in which case every T in heros range has a better kicker. the rest of heros range is pairs, all of which obv dominate villain. he literally needs to flop a miracle to love his hand vs us on the flop, and then he needs to love it even more because he has to play it against us out of position. add that its really hard to get money into the pot OOP unless hero here has a hand/hits the flop well too.

POSTFLOP
villain check/calls a draw...... on the flop, meh, its okay, but obv donking or check/raising is better.
villain goes ahead and check calls OTT. i agree that hero didnt bet as much as he could have, but its still a hugely -EV play to check/call a draw like this. villain should be check/folding or making some form of semibluff raise/shove to add fold equity to his hand, since he really cant think he has much equity w K high.
oh yeah and villain donkbet bluffs out big on the river into an opponent who has shown nothing but strength throughout the entire hand. so chances are his stupid bluff is going to get called a large percentage of the time.

= lolbad

side note to OP; villains will continue to call you with draws like this at micros, this is a perfect example of when you should be betting bigger and just winning more in general because villains wont fold draws.

having said that, i simply called villain lolbad because he donks out huge on the river vs an opponent who is repping strength. what logic is there to doing that unless you have the nuts?
 
AlfieAA

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no, because we shouldnt be concerned about whether or not we won the hand. we are concerned with making the best possible decisions in any given scenario with the information we DO have. if we were in your spot, we wouldnt know what holecards our opponent has when were making a decision, so dont give us the advantage :p

ok cool, i will know in future, i like when you see we, its like we are a team lol

even if he shows up with a straight this one time, it doesnt matter, because we will always call the river here because he doesnt have a straight, and we have him beat the vast majority of the time

if he was going to bluff me, you would think he would have raised more

i assume you mean how much would i have bet on the flop and turn lol? iono, board is drawy, and like i said, opponents are lolbad. if theyre calling 60% of pot theyre calling 90% lol. i prob make it 10c into the 12c pot OTF, which makes pot 32c OTT, where id bet like 24c or something

cool, i will punish the lolbads with higher raises next time :)

this would be correct, but your opponents at 2NL are going to be so incredibly bad that you can make -EV decisions preflop because you have such an advantage postflop. as a general rule, i wouldnt recommend this while youre learning, but AQo is still such a monster that its only so slightly -EV to raise in EP preflop, and most definitely +EV in a 2NL game. you just need to make sure you dont get into bad habbits.
good to see that youre adjusting and opening more hands on a super tight table though.

what does -EV and +EV mean?....yeah i will try and stick to my chart, i dont want to get into bad habits...learn from the ground up with the basics first, then get fancy in the future...yeah im recongnising table behaviour better than what i did last week

okay, well dont take this personally, but heres how it goes;

hero opens from EP. villain is OOP w/ KTo.

PREFLOP
heros range crushes KTo so he should fold pre. villain cannot profitable call this OOP. every K in heros range has a better kicker, there probably isnt even a T in heros range, but if there is its going to be AT, in which case every T in heros range has a better kicker. the rest of heros range is pairs, all of which obv dominate villain. he literally needs to flop a miracle to love his hand vs us on the flop, and then he needs to love it even more because he has to play it against us out of position. add that its really hard to get money into the pot OOP unless hero here has a hand/hits the flop well too.

POSTFLOP
villain check/calls a draw...... on the flop, meh, its okay, but obv donking or check/raising is better.
villain goes ahead and check calls OTT. i agree that hero didnt bet as much as he could have, but its still a hugely -EV play to check/call a draw like this. villain should be check/folding or making some form of semibluff raise/shove to add fold equity to his hand, since he really cant think he has much equity w K high.
oh yeah and villain donkbet bluffs out big on the river into an opponent who has shown nothing but strength throughout the entire hand. so chances are his stupid bluff is going to get called a large percentage of the time.

= lolbad

side note to OP; villains will continue to call you with draws like this at micros, this is a perfect example of when you should be betting bigger and just winning more in general because villains wont fold draws.

having said that, i simply called villain lolbad because he donks out huge on the river vs an opponent who is repping strength. what logic is there to doing that unless you have the nuts?

whens the book coming out? lol
 
JCgrind

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stop calling 'bets' 'raises' lol. its confusing me.
 
JCgrind

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EV = expected value. so -EV we can expect to lose money, +EV expect to win money.

playing 27o = -EV, playing AA = +EV lol
 
AlfieAA

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haha, i always think bets and raises are the same thing.....if you are raising a certain amount is that not betting?....there was me thinking i got the very basic stuff down lol....obv not....aaaaah right i get you on the EV......shouldnt that be 27o - - - - - -EV AA ++++++++++EV ...haha....thanks jchoop its all coming together piece by piece slowly but surely :D
 
JCgrind

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someone has to have bet before you to raise. so if youre first to act on the flop, you can check/bet/fold. cant raise cos theres no bet to raise. if you do bet however, obv the next player has the opportunity to raise you.

this is why hand analysis gets confusing when you say raise instead of bet. im sitting there trying to remember the hand thinking wtf, who bet before you? etc lol
 
AlfieAA

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gotcha, nice one, its the obvious answer and i still couldnt fathom it out....it shows you, you are dealing with a retard here haha....
 
JOEBOB69

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Where did you get this preflop hand chart from?
 
AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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I got it from pokerstratagy.com
 
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