$2 NLHE Full Ring: Hero has TT, K on the flop, villain calls c-bet... now what?

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nameless1537

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Hi Everyone,

This is the type of hand that kind of puzzles me. I hate playing hands OOP, so getting something like TT when in SB really frustrates me... and in this case, it was the brand new player (that I had NO stats on) that is playing the first hand he joins. Since I have no history on him, I was just playing the cards and the situation.

So here's the situation:

pokerstars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BB: 101 BB (VPIP: 46.15, PFR: 30.77, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 13)
UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 40.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
MP: 113.5 BB (VPIP: 38.46, PFR: 7.69, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
CO: 80 BB
BTN: 85 BB (VPIP: 30.77, PFR: 23.08, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
Hero (SB): 103.5 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, CO posts penalty blind 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has Th Tc
fold, fold, CO checks, BTN calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, CO calls 4 BB, fold

Flop : (12 BB, 2 players) 3c Kc 2d
Hero bets 6 BB, CO calls 6 BB

Turn : (24 BB, 2 players) 4d
Hero checks, CO bets 11 BB, fold

CO wins 23 BB

My thinking process is this: K is very likely in someone's calling range (for the average player) and so seeing the K on the board really had me stop me in my tracks. I still cbet since I had a hand. But I just kinda... gave up on the turn since I was OOP. I didn't want to add more to the pot and make it harder for me to play the river OOP. Was folding TT on the turn the right play?
 
PaxMundi

PaxMundi

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I think betting the flop for 1/2p is absolutely fine here and you could also check call the flop but seen as the CO is very fishy looking completing the blind oop and with 80bb. They can have any two cards within reason less the absolute junk and 2x 3x plus all draws A4 45 56 are viable holdings so ye just an easy turn check call and then decide rivers depending on bet sizing etc..
 
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fundiver199

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I think, you played this fine. Its important to view poker in a long term perspective, and part of the value from raising TT preflop comes from fold equity, and some of the value also come from hitting a set. Sure TT is strong enough to have some showdown value even unimproved, but you are not going to be able to realise that very well especially out of position.

In general if you find yourself on the turn with a hand, that only beat bluffs, and that has little hope of improving, you should generally look to check-fold. I would rather call here with A high, because A high can spike top pair or the wheel and likely be good. With TT you only have 2 outs, and you are not going to call again on the river unimproved, so better to cut your losses and get out now.

It sucks, and maybe he bluffed us, but if he is willing to post-call and then float us on the flop with nothing, we cant do anything about it. We will get him, when we have something stronger, and if we think, he is bluffing to much, we should play a lot of our KX like this and be ready to call down. If you always check-fold, when you check, that is for sure problematic, but the way to avoid that is to check some stronger hands as well.
 
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maxi_j

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B/XC/F
or you can under bet on turn and XC on river. Because on flop he can call with any A, PP and gutshots.
 
Matt Vaughan

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I totally get that playing these hands OOP is a bit nerve wracking and not super easy. But getting into spots like this will help you improve as a player.

I like that you're sizing up a little, but I think you could even consider going to 5.5-6bb here. Kind of nit picking, but when a CO post is checked and the BB effectively overlimps, I think we want to blast here.

I think flop can go either way. Cbetting is fine, check calling is fine.

As played on turn, I think check folding is too nitty. You are letting every single FD, random A high, etc bet and just win here. I get that it's uncomfortable because it feels like we're check calling to just check fold the river, but we SHOULD be doing that with some of our range. If we always call river with hands that we check call turn with, we're WAY unbalanced somewhere.

Not a horrendous mistake by itself, but if we're also check folding JJ and QQ here, we're just folding way too often.
 
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nameless1537

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As played on turn, I think check folding is too nitty. You are letting every single FD, random A high, etc bet and just win here. I get that it's uncomfortable because it feels like we're check calling to just check fold the river, but we SHOULD be doing that with some of our range. If we always call river with hands that we check call turn with, we're WAY unbalanced somewhere.


This is a big part of what I was thinking when posting this. When I folded on the turn after cbetting on the flop, it really looks like I was bluffing with the cbet when in fact, I had something. But then I also think "what's the point in check-calling the turn if I'm only gonna fold on any kind of a river bet?" But what does the calling on the turn do in this situation? What does this action communicate to the rest of the table? That we have something but not strong enough to lead out on the turn? And would it be better to check-raise on the turn in hopes of getting a free showdown on the river?
 
teh_colonel_saigon

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Yea a call on the flop would mean either a weak King (I think he'd raise KQ at least) or some rag ace, possibly some connectors too.

I gave villain: A2s-A9s,K2s-KJs,A2o-A9o,K2o-KJo (weak kings and rag aces)

TT is at 47% equity against that on the flop, 38% on the turn. I honestly think you are better here than that- you start throwing in some missed pocket pairs (he def. does not have a set here) some connectors and you're looking alright.

His turn bet is pretty weak, it's probably safe to call.
 
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fundiver199

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Yea a call on the flop would mean either a weak King (I think he'd raise KQ at least) or some rag ace, possibly some connectors too.

I gave villain: A2s-A9s,K2s-KJs,A2o-A9o,K2o-KJo (weak kings and rag aces)

TT is at 47% equity against that on the flop, 38% on the turn. I honestly think you are better here than that- you start throwing in some missed pocket pairs (he def. does not have a set here) some connectors and you're looking alright.

His turn bet is pretty weak, it's probably safe to call.


Of course you can always construct a scenario, where Villain have a ton of bluffs, and where we are therefore getting the right odds to call with a bluff catcher. But how realistic is it really, that he have a ton of bluffs? He is playing 2NL, he did not start with a full stack, and he limp-called preflop. Everything about this scream fish, and most fish are on the passive side especially at 2NL.

At higher limits you find more fish, who play back at you after the flop. They donk bet, check-raise, float, stab, whatever. But at 2NL most fish are complete beginners, and the natural playing style for someone new to the game is the passive one. Trying to make a hand, then trying to get paid. Its really that stupidly simple most of the time.

In this case he liked his hand enough to call a half pot C-bet on the flop and take over the betting, when we check to him on the turn. Sure his sizing is somewhat small, but that does not mean, he is bluffing. It could mean, he is afraid to lose his customer, or he have a good but not great hand. Maybe a hand like K9 or K8.

In my opinion the profit at 2NL does not come from trying to catch bluffs out of position against fish. So I would just let him have this relatively small pot and then look to hopefully stack him, when I have the goods, or outplay him, when I have position.
 
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UkoChebuko

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NL2, use bigger size for iso raise. Seven blinds, even more. In this case you have a luck, playing only vs one player. Check-call OTF. You need every garbage in his range. If you want to check-call. You can do this with let's say 77 (bet, check-fold), but TT is too strong. If he is very passive, then bet. But you must fold on the river.


On the turn is too early to fold. You can call and fold on the river. Or even call on the river. There are some draws...If the size is big, maybe this is a bluff. You don't have info, sorry. Without info, bet/call/call is better. But check-call on the flop is the best. His range will be wider. Depends on the card OTR, of course.

Bet, check-call and check-fold OTR is very profitable line at this limits. Ugly, stupid line, but profitable.

1. Big iso raise
2. Check-call OTF
3. As played, check-call OTT
4. OTR check-call or check-fold, not a big difference, depends on the card.
 
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UkoChebuko

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About the iso raise. If they fold vs this big iso raise (7-8), you will have 3 blinds profit, 300/100, good result for this hand. No problem at all. Call, fold, whatever...But playing vs two players OOP is not so good situation, not so profitable. With this hand. With two players you will have, let's say 55% equity, vs one let's say 75%. With big raise you still wil have a similar equity, 70%+, but more profit, bigger raise.
 
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Jacki Burkhart

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I'm raising preflop A LOT bigger....basically like 8bb.

When I'm isoing limpers in position I will usually go 3bb+ 1 bb per limper online (and live I'll do the same but my standard preflop raise is bigger than 3bb based on game tendencies)

When you are 3betting or iso raising limpers OOP you want to increase this even further. in my mind, 7bb is the minimum. could wiggle a little based on table conditions.

as played this is a flop I'm often going to Cbet. with a hand like QQ I'll mix in some checks because there is less to protect against, but a hand like TT really benefits from protection as well as getting value from draws. It's either Cbet or check call, the beauty of a Cbet is we get to set the price.

once we are called on the flop we aren't terribly happy but villain can have a lot of draws. and Kx. we should aim to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. we can accomplish this 1 of 2 ways; block betting vs the types of opponents that won't bluff raise us....or check calling vs opponents who are likely to bet the turn with floats and draws. (and check folding vs opponents that won't bet turn with less than top pair, they are rare but they do exist). you said you don't know the opponents so I would lean towards a block bet that is slightly smaller than I would be willing to check call. I would probably check call half pot so I might bet 35-40% pot on this turn. (and fold to a raise).
 
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ksandr010

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I would exclude CO hands Kx from the range, because with such hands, he would try to steal the blinds. There will be a lot of flush and straight draw in the CO range, so I would play call on the turn, check/call on the river
 
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