$2 NLHE Full Ring: Good situation for the semi-bluff on the turn?

I managed to squeeze in a game while on vacation and came across this hand. It was a new table so I had very little information on the players on the table. The villain (UTG) was playing pretty aggressively in what little I saw (won a bunch of pots without a showdown). I decided to call the donk bet on the flop -- was this a mistake since I had nothing and villain originally limped in... so presumably, could be limping in with suited connectors or low/med pair? So it's entirely possible that he had paired the board).

When I bet the turn, I figured that his check may have indicated weakness, and I had a backdoor flush draw and a gutshot straight draw (and still had the ace as an out) so maybe I could kind of semi-bluff him off the put. When he called, I figured maybe he had something (the donk-bet on the flop and then calling the bet on the turn) so I folded on his bet on the river since I didn't think I had anything and probably couldn't bluff him off the pot given his call on the turn.

My question is... was the call on the flop appropriate? And was semi-bluff on the turn a decent play against a pretty aggressive opponent?

Would love to read your feedback. Thanks in advance...


pokerstars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (CO): 107 BB
BTN: 200 BB (VPIP: 57.14, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 7)
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
BB: 102.5 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 4)
UTG: 123.5 BB (VPIP: 37.50, PFR: 37.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
UTG+1: 106 BB (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
MP: 138 BB (VPIP: 87.50, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Ac 8d
UTG calls 1 BB, fold, MP calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 5 BB, BTN calls 5 BB, SB calls 4.5 BB, BB calls 4 BB, UTG calls 4 BB, fold

Flop : (26 BB, 5 players) 6d 9h 2d
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets 5 BB, Hero calls 5 BB, fold, fold, fold

Turn : (36 BB, 2 players) 5d
UTG checks, Hero bets 17.5 BB, UTG calls 17.5 BB

River : (71 BB, 2 players) Ks
UTG bets 14 BB, fold

UTG wins 68.5 BB

a few thoughts:

preflop
I like to iso limpers but this isn't the right type of hand. you want a hand that is either value, or that plays well multiway. Ace-middle offsuit checks none of these boxes. I just fold it.. However....if you are going to play it play it for a raise, so I do like that. I'd bet 6bb but 5bb is fine.

flop
as the preflop aggressor, when I get donked into in a heads up pot I raise. nearly always. however, in this spot it's a severely multiway flop. we have nothing. and to make matters worse we do not close the action. we might still get raised by the button, or check raised by either blind. the more players in the hand the stronger hand we need to continue....this applies to our draws as well as made hands (of which we have neither).


Turn:
well now that it's heads up semibluffing the turn has more merit. if this were a headsup pot all along then yes I would often barrel turn. being that villain donked into 4 other players on the flop I suspect he has something. I would take this opportunity to check back and realize my equity.

keep posting hands. you are asking the right kinds of questions which suggests you already know what needs to be worked on. posting more, asking more and learning more will help you along your journey to world domination

Pretty much agree with Jackie but like to add a few more thoughts.

Preflop
Your goal when isolating limpers is to get everyone to fold, or get called by one limper, so that you can play postflop in position. This is why, a larger size is better. However when there are more limpers, you need higher standards for, what hands you raise, and A8o is pretty iffy. I would much rather have a hand like A4s, because it can flop some decent draws, which give you more playability postflop.

The spot is even more iffy because of, who you have behind. Since your goal is to have position postflop, its far from ideal to have a 57% VPIP between you and the blinds. Its predictable, that he is probably going to call, because this is, what a 57% VPIP do most of the time. When he call, you wont have position postflop, and other people are more likely to call as well. Which is exactly, what happened.

Part of table selection is to try to not have a 57% VPIP on your direct left. But if you do, and the table is otherwise good, then you have to tighten up to compensate for the fact, you wont be able to steal the blinds very often, and you will need to play a lot out of position.


Flop

In my experience, UTG calling range is usually a low/medium pocket pair. So the flop and the turn hit this range pretty hard. I would fold on the flop.

Johnkanon said:

In my experience, UTG calling range is usually a low/medium pocket pair. So the flop and the turn hit this range pretty hard. I would fold on the flop

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I dont agree, that we can narrow his range down this much. Most limpers are playing way to many hands, so that UTG limp-call can be almost anything remotely playable. Anything suited, anything connected, any pair, any A high, any K high, even T2 if its his "lucky hand", or he like Doyle Brunson.

I do agree with folding the flop though, especially because we have two more guys left to act behind us. Heads up I am always calling a silly 20% pot donk bet with A high though. It can easily be the best hand, if he is trying to set his own price with a draw, and if he has a hand like pocket 4`s, I am getting the right price to try and outdraw him. If he has a monster like a flopped set, he is owning me, but he is missing out of value against other parts of my range, so who cares.

Preflop i might raise with ATo. A8o in those scenarios when i know that villain (or SB BB) makes huge errors postflop.

Fold on flop this is 3way pot.

If you caled Flop thant means you think you have better hand or vilain plays turn face up cards (like flop cbet 100% and turn cbet ~30% only value hands).

Only good moves Isolating size and river fold (as played).

37.5 on 8 hand range it could be very tightly player who playing only with 2 pairs and better) The bluff on the turn could be good with Ad 8c not Ac 8d The bluffs in such multypots is very upbeat overall.

Fundiver's advice is perfect here. Ultimately remember that when your playing $2, and you have tons of weak preflop gameplay on a regular basis, you really want to be iso raising limpers with bigger sizes and better hands. You loosened up here to aggression by light raising when you should be tightening up against bad-aggressive fish. I don't even like playing hands like A2-A5s as a preflop raise against these sort of players and this stake level as it is much better against slightly better opponents. Stick to a tight range with great equity and playability against these sort of players, while occasionally mixing in some hands with good playability and implied odds (78s, etc). This will greatly increase your long term winnings against these players in comparison to playing some medium playability hands like A2-A5 which are going to be harder to play when you catch a piece at these levels. You really shouldn't be working in light raises against aggressive fish in this spot (they seriously don't fold). Focus especially on preflop play at these stakes and the postflop play will come with experience.

The flop call was certainly the biggest mistake as others have mentioned. You don't close the action and even fish will rarely just donkbet into a 5 way pot with complete air. Considering you block (though certainly not a huge consideration here) some of his junky Ax hands that he could limp with pre, the flop and turn hit his probable range pretty hard.

In general, bluffing with junky draws is a pretty good play, especially against weak passive players. But this is a VERY weak draw AND your against what seems to be the polar opposite of a weak passive player, which is a fishy aggressive calling station. They don't fold, so again you want to play tighter overall. Also again considering that this was a 5 way pot, it's not an ideal bluff spot.

Good luck in the future!

Unkinhead said:

Fundiver's advice is perfect here. Ultimately remember that when your playing $2, and you have tons of weak preflop gameplay on a regular basis, you really want to be iso raising limpers with bigger sizes and better hands. You loosened up here to aggression by light raising when you should be tightening up against bad-aggressive fish. I don't even like playing hands like A2-A5s as a preflop raise against these sort of players and this stake level as it is much better against slightly better opponents. Stick to a tight range with great equity and playability against these sort of players, while occasionally mixing in some hands with good playability and implied odds (78s, etc). This will greatly increase your long term winnings against these players in comparison to playing some medium playability hands like A2-A5 which are going to be harder to play when you catch a piece at these levels. You really shouldn't be working in light raises against aggressive fish in this spot (they seriously don't fold). Focus especially on preflop play at these stakes and the postflop play will come with experience.

The flop call was certainly the biggest mistake as others have mentioned. You don't close the action and even fish will rarely just donkbet into a 5 way pot with complete air. Considering you block (though certainly not a huge consideration here) some of his junky Ax hands that he could limp with pre, the flop and turn hit his probable range pretty hard.

In general, bluffing with junky draws is a pretty good play, especially against weak passive players. But this is a VERY weak draw AND your against what seems to be the polar opposite of a weak passive player, which is a fishy aggressive calling station. They don't fold, so again you want to play tighter overall. Also again considering that this was a 5 way pot, it's not an ideal bluff spot.


Good luck in the future!

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Agree with everything other than preferring suited connectors to suited aces. They are both bluffing hands, if you raise proflop, and the main point is, dont try to bluff fish. Seriously just dont. Its 2NL, they are playing for the price of nothing to have fun, so they are not there to make big laydowns.

If its heads up, you can fire a C-bet on boards, where they missed a lot, and that will actually work often enough. Even fish need something to continue. But if they have any piece of the board, they become like glue, so on a brick turn dont waste the second barrel.

Or even sometimes on a "scarecard". If the turn is an ace, and you try to represent it, they will sometimes have it, because they called with A high out of position, and you wonder, what on earth went wrong. Beating fish is all about the mini-max game. Win as much as possible, when you have the best hand, and get away cheap, when you dont.

fundiver199 said:

Agree with everything other than preferring suited connectors to suited aces. They are both bluffing hands, if you raise proflop, and the main point is, dont try to bluff fish. Seriously just dont. Its 2NL, they are playing for the price of nothing to have fun, so they are not there to make big laydowns.

If its heads up, you can fire a C-bet on boards, where they missed a lot, and that will actually work often enough. Even fish need something to continue. But if they have any piece of the board, they become like glue, so on a brick turn dont waste the second barrel.

Or even sometimes on a "scarecard". If the turn is an ace, and you try to represent it, they will sometimes have it, because they called with A high out of position, and you wonder, what on earth went wrong. Beating fish is all about the mini-max game. Win as much as possible, when you have the best hand, and get away cheap, when you dont.

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My point was that I'd rather choose hands like suited connectors (not simply as a bluff) that have very good implied odds and playability against aggressive fish. A2-A5s don't play all that well Postflop. You have implied odds when you hit your flush, but you have much less straight potential, and when you hit your ace they're gonna fold or value own you with better ones. Even aggressive fish will fold to an Ace on the flop, theres not nearly as much potential value there.

You played the turn and river correctly. Pre-flop, if it was one player in front only, an ISO here is ok. Two players with this kind of hand, not ideal. You'd want to size up a little more for that.


On the flop, you need to just fold. You have too many people in the hand and you don't know what they are going to do.

Ditto.

I agree with fundiver and jacki.

Wouldnt open with A8o here. Probably not very often at all.

Probably fold on flop. Too many players behind, and we only have backdoors and aces to hit, even though its a fifth pot bet.

I think betting turn isnt horrible, but i think checking is better. While you picked up some equity, when u hit the flush you still have to worry about higher flushes, and when u hit the straight you have to worry about flushes.

Folding on river is really the only option, maybeee bluff at the river if you were playing higher stakes or if you knew your opponent could be bluffed, but not here.

You should love any game he’s in lol