$2 NLHE Full Ring: Folding to aggression from a LAG player

LD1977

LD1977

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Villain is loose aggressive.

MP1: $2.21
MP2: $1.50
CO: $2.00
BTN: $2.31
SB: $2.00
Hero (BB): $2.03
UTG: $0.85
UTG+1: $3.50
UTG+2: $3.12

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with 8 8
6 folds, BTN raises to $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.61) K 6 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.26, BTN raises to $2.01 all in, Hero folds

I wasn't sure whether to fold or not although I was well aware that this guy can bluff with nothing. I figured he can't have a good pocket pair since he would raise preflop, but was afraid of K or 6.

1. Was the contibet too small? He may have figured I have nothing and lumped All In because of that. Possibly should have made it 2/3 pot?
 
pocketehs

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Have any actual HUD stats on the villain? I think we have to remember that just because hes a LAG doesnt mean he cant ever have a real hand. We also need to determine how big of a LAG and fish he is like for instance if hes a 90/70 or something.

Here are my thoughts...
preflop - is 5xbb a standard raise for this player? I think I prefer a call instead of a 3-bet tbh but if you 3-bet here we have to make the betsizing larger than 3x because we are OOP. If we 3bet here, Im raising like .40-.45 to accommodate for our positional disadvantage.

Flop - if we 3bet, Im betting like 65-75% on this board. Your betsizing looks too weak on this board. If he jams, yes we are folding.

If we just call pre, then I would x/c the flop.

Edit: the reason I like flatting is cos if were playing against a player who has a wide range, is aggressive, calls a lot and were OOP. I dont want to build a huge pot OOP.
 
LD1977

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I don't know how to get that data, I just started with HM2 today. He was identified to be a LAG in the program and his stats showed that in the HUD (I don't recall correct numbers though).

He was raising a lot so I couldn't narrow it down. I think he raised around the same amount every time.

Thanks for the raise OOP tip, I did the 3* raise since I read somewhere that is standard. Should take more factors into consideration, obviously :)

I can't 3-bet the flop, he is AllIn so I have to go AllIn too.

Yes I am wondering about that weaksauce bet, it may have provoked him to go AllIn.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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^ this.

I might even call off the shove, because wtf does he have here?

CC won't like it because its nonstandard and borderline spewy, but i think he has more air here than Kx.
 
pocketehs

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I don't know how to get that data, I just started with HM2 today. He was identified to be a LAG in the program and his stats showed that in the HUD (I don't recall correct numbers though).

He was raising a lot so I couldn't narrow it down. I think he raised around the same amount every time.

Thanks for the raise OOP tip, I did the 3* raise since I read somewhere that is standard. Should take more factors into consideration, obviously :)

I can't 3-bet the flop, he is AllIn so I have to go AllIn too.

Yes I am wondering about that weaksauce bet, it may have provoked him to go AllIn.

I meant like if we 3-bet pre flop, then on the flop....
I was trying to give you two examples of how I would have played the hand - one for if we 3-bet and one for is we flat call preflop :)

I think the 3x raise is standard if we are IP with only one player but if were OOP then we have to take into account our positional disadvantage.
 
Yoshimiii

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Standard fold here tbh. You're beating nothing but a bluff and without a very solid read you have to fold as the pot odds are not good enough, he probably has the king as he raises it 5x BB Pf, then calls your raise... you're crushed here most of the time.
 
frozensprx

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Villain is loose aggressive.

MP1: $2.21
MP2: $1.50
CO: $2.00
BTN: $2.31
SB: $2.00
Hero (BB): $2.03
UTG: $0.85
UTG+1: $3.50
UTG+2: $3.12

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with 8 8
6 folds, BTN raises to $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.61) K 6 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.26, BTN raises to $2.01 all in, Hero folds

I wasn't sure whether to fold or not although I was well aware that this guy can bluff with nothing. I figured he can't have a good pocket pair since he would raise preflop, but was afraid of K or 6.

1. Was the contibet too small? He may have figured I have nothing and lumped All In because of that. Possibly should have made it 2/3 pot?


Yeah more information is needed for this, like what the villain's typical raises look like. Honestly based on the information given I would make the call against most LAG players because it is a dry flop and he is shoving to end the action, which either means he thinks your hand is too strong to fold and he will win the allin, or he is just trying to get you to fold on the flop. If he has a king, his chances of being outdrawn are slim, so shoving on this flop makes no sense, and he would be missing out on a lot of value, but then again I might be giving him too much credit, perhaps he is just a donk that got excited in a 3bet pot with top pair and shoved the flop. I think more often than not this is just an overly aggressive play aimed at getting you to fold.
 
LD1977

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Don't know, whenever I call All In postflop they always have the nuts... incredible stuff.
 
blueskies

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Fold. He has Kx unless he's Sir Shovealot.

With a hand like 88. It is fine to just call preflop. It is ok to call down an LAG player depending on board texture.

No need to raise the pot size with mediocre hands.
 
LD1977

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Yeah I stopped raising with small and medium pairs except maybe mediums in late position. Too expensive.
 
acky100

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Yeah I stopped raising with small and medium pairs except maybe mediums in late position. Too expensive.

should be raising all your pairs for the most part in medium-late positions!
 
LD1977

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Why? If they don't hit the flop they are garbage, and if they do then it is not so hard to get the money in postflop. Basically postflop action dwarfs preflop on micros so speculative hands don't need to hurry.
 
youregoodmate

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should be raising all your pairs for the most part in medium-late positions!

Will this not just waste the value in set mining hands? This could be a nice plug for my game.
 
pocketehs

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Why? If they don't hit the flop they are garbage, and if they do then it is not so hard to get the money in postflop. Basically postflop action dwarfs preflop on micros so speculative hands don't need to hurry.

If we have position and the initiative going into a hand were much more likely to win the pot. Thats why we raise from LP/MP. Plus when we have position, we are able to see the villains actions before we have to put anymore money into the pot.
 
LD1977

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Hm, don't know, people don't fold to cbet that much.

If I am holding 22 and I cbet into 2-3 people and 2 remain on the turn, I have wasted preflop raise and the cbet since I am not winning it. This scenario happens a lot.

but

If I don't raise, I can get out of this easily unless I hit the set, then I stack someone :D
 
acky100

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if you're not raising small pairs in late position especially then thats a pretty big leak, pocket pairs are profitable hands and there is a lot of place for them especially the micro's where everyone is bad and where c-bets actually DO get folds a LOT more than they do at higher stakes! I'm not saying open them from the first 2 or 3 seats if they're like 66 and lower (but if there is a 100bb fish or two that are stacking off with top pair or whatever then **** yes im opening 22+ from every seat) But what im saying is from the middle and late positions (like the last 4 seats) there is just no way you should be losing money with these hands overall, don't go wild cbetting into multiple opponents as should be standard but especially at the micros these hands are very profitable and if you're losing with them in middle-late positions you probably arent cbetting effectively or something. If you miss a flop and a fish doesnt fold a lot to cbets and you are oop, there is no harm in just check folding if you know when you do hit a set youre going to get a good chunk of his stack, also there is no harm in folding the small ones (66 and lower) when there is like a lot of 3betting regs or regs that call a lot IP and dont fold to many cbets etc, but isnt many of these at the micros. I wrote too much there my bad.
 
LD1977

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No, no, please write, I need to see how better players think. I value all advice but try to think about what is happening in my games and how some of the advice might be appropriate at your own level but not at mine.

As far as folding goes, nits fold to anything really so PP or not has no influence. The problem are loose and semi loose passives, they don't fold to cbets and I can usually stack them if I hit a set regardless (unless, you know, the beat is bad). Some betting patterns really piss them off and then I clean them out :D

In aggressive games I just fold EP small pocket pairs. No point in getting into tricky situations I don't know how to get out of.
 
youregoodmate

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if you're not raising small pairs in late position especially then thats a pretty big leak, pocket pairs are profitable hands and there is a lot of place for them especially the micro's where everyone is bad and where c-bets actually DO get folds a LOT more than they do at higher stakes! I'm not saying open them from the first 2 or 3 seats if they're like 66 and lower (but if there is a 100bb fish or two that are stacking off with top pair or whatever then **** yes im opening 22+ from every seat) But what im saying is from the middle and late positions (like the last 4 seats) there is just no way you should be losing money with these hands overall, don't go wild cbetting into multiple opponents as should be standard but especially at the micros these hands are very profitable and if you're losing with them in middle-late positions you probably arent cbetting effectively or something. If you miss a flop and a fish doesnt fold a lot to cbets and you are oop, there is no harm in just check folding if you know when you do hit a set youre going to get a good chunk of his stack, also there is no harm in folding the small ones (66 and lower) when there is like a lot of 3betting regs or regs that call a lot IP and dont fold to many cbets etc, but isnt many of these at the micros. I wrote too much there my bad.

Well the experts say 7% 3 bet is optimum. This will take me over that comfortably :D Looks like im gonna have to cut out more of my crap SC.

Thanks for this one Acky, makes complete sense. I had always just flatted esp oop. Are you less likely to 3 bet if villains are likely to call? Im assuming you just flat against nits.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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Acky means opening, not 3betting small PP's.

RFI kids.
 
WVHillbilly

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Well the experts say 7% 3 bet is optimum. This will take me over that comfortably :D Looks like im gonna have to cut out more of my crap SC.

Thanks for this one Acky, makes complete sense. I had always just flatted esp oop. Are you less likely to 3 bet if villains are likely to call? Im assuming you just flat against nits.
Flatting small pairs OOP in general is a leak. Unless you have some very real idea that you'll be able to get paid in full when you hit you're better off folding or 3betting them than flatting.
 
youregoodmate

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Flatting small pairs OOP in general is a leak. Unless you have some very real idea that you'll be able to get paid in full when you hit you're better off folding or 3betting them than flatting.

:D I've learnt something! I take it we're 3 betting players with high F3B and high FCB and folding versus players with low F3B and low FCB?
 
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