$2 NLHE Full Ring: Fold JJ overpair on turn-completed flushdraw board?

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SC Gurgeh

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The Hand
Click for hand: https://www.weaktight.com/h/5977aa5cd3904356608b481f?results=1&simple=1

Hand History:

$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
pokerstars
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter

Stacks:
UTG ($3.60) 180bb
UTG+1 ($4.44) 222bb
MP1 ($2) 100bb
MP2 ($2.07) 104bb
CO ($2.08) 104bb
BTN ($2.25) 113bb
SB Hero ($1.28) 64bb
BB ($2.77) 139bb

Pre-Flop: (0.03, 8 players) Hero is SB :Js: :Jh:
5 folds, BTN raises to $0.05, Hero calls $0.04, BB calls $0.03
Flop: :4c4: :7c4: :Th: ($0.15, 3 players)

Hero bets $0.07, BB calls $0.07, BTN folds

Turn: :9c4: ($0.29, 2)
Hero checks, BB bets $0.14, Hero calls $0.14 River: :4d4: ($0.57, 2)

Hero checks, BB bets $0.55, Hero folds

Final Pot: $1.12

BB wins $1.10 (net +$0.29)

BTN lost $0.05
Hero lost $0.26

I'm pretty sure I made the right decision folding on the river. Things I think I should've done differently are a) folding on the turn, b) sizing my bet larger to make sure V folds flush draws on the flop and c) 3-betting pre-flop to try to muscle out the button and BB and to avoid playing out of position.

Any thoughts?
 
John A

John A

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No info on opponent? Whether you should be bet/folding the turn or c/cing depends a lot on your opponent. I don't think w/o really good info/reads you can c/f the turn. I don't have enough info to give you any solid feedback honestly.
 
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Athopkinson

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Why did you check the river? It shows weakness.
 
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Papier24

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Things I think I should've done differently are a) folding on the turn, b) sizing my bet larger to make sure V folds flush draws on the flop and c) 3-betting pre-flop to try to muscle out the button and BB and to avoid playing out of position.

Any thoughts?
a. ) As played I would never ever fold on the turn to one single small bet with an Overpair. This is just way to tight. You just can't automatically put him on a flush draw. On the river the decision is way more difficult since he makes a huge pot size bet and you don't have a flush blocker in your hand. Without information about your opponent I think the fold is ok. Really looks like he has a flush.

b.) you could bet a bit larger but you don't want him to fold flush draws. If he has a flush draw you definetly want him to call in order to get value from him with your overpair.

c.) Yes, I would almost always 3bet with JJ on the SB against a button open. Your just so much infront of a button opening range. I know pocket jacks can be a difficult hand sometimes but you should still be aware of the fact that it is one of the best preflop hands in holdem. Postflop your hand is way underrepresented. This is also the reason why you should call the turn. As played I would have prefered a check raise on the flop over donk betting.
 
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SC Gurgeh

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No info on opponent? Whether you should be bet/folding the turn or c/cing depends a lot on your opponent. I don't think w/o really good info/reads you can c/f the turn. I don't have enough info to give you any solid feedback honestly.

I can't seem to get free poker DB working and other software is too expensive for me.

Why did you check the river? It shows weakness.
Scared of flushes + tilt.
 
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SC Gurgeh

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@Papier, why a check-raise?
 
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Papier24

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@Papier, why a check-raise?
I personally check all my hands oop and never donk bet. Here's a good article that includes some arguments why you should usually not donk bet : https://www.upswingpoker.com/donk-bet-lead-flop-strategy/

As mentioned in my other post you're hand is really underrepresented. You're most likely in front with JJ on this board but this board is also really draw heavy. By check raising you're gaining much more informations about villains hand and let him pay much more for his draws. I don't hate your bet but I just like the check-raise a little bit more.
 
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SC Gurgeh

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I personally check all my hands oop and never donk bet. Here's a good article that includes some arguments why you should usually not donk bet : https://www.upswingpoker.com/donk-bet-lead-flop-strategy/

As mentioned in my other post you're hand is really underrepresented. You're most likely in front with JJ on this board but this board is also really draw heavy. By check raising you're gaining much more informations about villains hand and let him pay much more for his draws. I don't hate your bet but I just like the check-raise a little bit more.

Ok I'll have a look at that article!

Any thoughts on the rest of the hand?
 
AgentXtreme

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that check on the turn showed weakness so I think 80% of the time , he bluffied based on that , like why not bluffing the flush because he pot size bet on that river , I think if he had the nutflush and show weakness twice with the check , he would bet 50-60% pot , pot sizing is clearly a bluff in this situation
 
Keith_MM

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I can't seem to get Free Poker DB working and other software is too expensive for me.


Scared of flushes + tilt.

use the 1 months free trial for each of drivehud , pokertracker 4 and holdem manager2 and jivaro which will give you 4 months free hud use during which time you can work out which hud you like the best , or can afford and buy it from the profits that you make from using a HUD. I think the cheapest is drivehud for 2nl and 5nl players. HEM and PT4 both had cheaper versions that could only be used atthe micros. A new version of HEM is being written/tested at the moment and anyone buying now gets a free upgrade to the new version.
 
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braveslice

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Drivehud is 9 dollars per year for micros it seems. Well worth the 4.5BI if it works during trial.
 
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SC Gurgeh

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Thank you for all your advice, I think trying a trial is a decent solution :)
 
Keith_MM

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xeester.com is another hud site which will give you another months free trial and then similar annual pricing to drivehud anyway that 5 months free hud use you can get in which to get used to using a hud and make the rofits to invest in one of them.
 
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blast126

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Why you didn't raise preflop? Play against a single opponent is better than play against multiple opponents. The call invite the BB to play.
I have doubts if BB has suited connectors, but may be a good fold
 
Luvart

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It's a classic microstakes one-pair "instinct" hand in which without HUD/any info on your opponent your decision is based solely on your instinct.

Tough decision, honestly I think the fold is good. Of course he could bet for bluff, but I am not hugely conveinced. Flop turn same actions form different opponents: you lead-bet, he calls, but also on the turn he lead-bets and you call, saying to each-other "I've something, pal".

The problem is whether your "something" is better that his.

Tough decision, solely by instinct I would fold.

Also, I agree with your point to bet bigger on the flop but not because you want to make villain fold his draws, get rid of this mentality. A bet at least 65% is good. Probably I agree with folding on the turn too. For the preflop calling with JJ I don't know, i'm working on this part of my game.
 
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Samuel Kollapso

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Always try to get more information from your opponents in the game, maybe if you had analyzed it before, you would throw this hand with doubts, and show no sign of weakness.
 
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SC Gurgeh

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Thanks everyone!
 
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