$2 NLHE Full Ring: donk min raised on river

Not really got much info on villian, he limps his SB, then calls my raise from the button..so instantly think middle pair.

Nice flop for me, I lead out, I think size is ok? Now I'm thinking, ok maybe he has something like 7'7s-9'9s or possibly a draw.

Anyway my bet sizing now is this ok for the turn? When we hit trips, I'm ok with it and want to get maximum value and maybe can get his 7'7s-9'9s call here if I bet under half. I was not expecting him to donk min raise in this spot. When he does, my instant thought is he HAS to have a boat here, it smells so much like a set trap...so I'm left with a dilemma, do I just call his value bet here and muck or are we ever good here where calling is ok with his weaker queen?

My thoughts are pot odds means call..but kind of horrible spot.

Thoughts?




pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG ($0.85)
MP ($0.69)
CO ($1)
Button ($2.90)
Hero (SB) ($2.17)
BB ($2.65)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q , A
3 folds, Button bets $0.04, Hero raises to $0.11, 1 fold, Button calls $0.07

Flop: ($0.24) Q , 10 , 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.16, Button calls $0.16

Turn: ($0.56) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.38, Button calls $0.38

River: ($1.32) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $0.56, Button raises to $1.12, Hero??

raise more pre. bet flop more. bet turn more then ship river

Tyler69 said:

raise more pre. bet flop more. bet turn more then ship river

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3x his limp I thought is standard/ok here pre? What do you think on the flop, 20c?

So my sizing all along was terribly bad? What does shipping the river achieve here? I want calls don't I? You think he's calling of an under pair here to a shove on the river?


Thanks for the reply btw..

By betting bigger everywhere you can easily shove (or effectively shove) the river without it being a ridiculous overbet, and villain isn't generally folding anything for say 20-25c on the flop that he's calling for 16c with. Being OOP, the sooner we can reasonably get our stack in with a hand we're confident in the better - and against the average 2NL player who's happily call-call-calling there's no reason not to be confident in TPTK.

It's not something that holds up very well (especially readless) at higher levels, but at 2NL you can't really go wrong with consistently pot-sized value bets.

As played there's no way you can fold river.

Bet more pre/flop/turn/river. 20c/20c/48c/shove. Villain limp called the button he is a fish and the flop is very wet.

As played snap that raise off Qx can defo do this.

villain didnt limp but ya wat they said

So he min raised the BTN here?

Ach glanced over the first line, read the word limp and assumed it was 4NL.
My advice remains the same although the preflop sizing is fine now. Defo flatting the river as our fish read has gone.

Sorry, I obviously mis read my own hand.

He limps the button and I'm in the SB, as you can see.

Anyway, just bet sizing is bad? And shoving river is being called by what exactly, anything worse on that particular board?...I can't see how we are ever being called by a small pocket pair or even the 8 or 10 here when we shove, so what exactly does shoving achieve apart from villian folding?

At least me half betting pot (maybe an error again in size) but at least I'm value you betting where he thinks maybe its ok to call of his pocket pair/ or 10 here or am I wrong?

Value from worse Queens???

WVHillbilly said:

Value from worse Queens???

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I mean, if he holds an under pair, or 10 / 8 , which is how I felt at the time before he check raised, hence the reason I bet half pot on the river I was expecting his to call it off. When he min raised me, I can only ever put someone on a FH or indeed a worse queen in which case getting the chips in is fine.

I just don't understand what insta shoving the river does here, as for the many times he doesn't hold a worse queen but actually holds a middle pocket pair or part of the board then he will call it because of pot odds. He is never callling of a shove unless he has us beat or a worse queen, but does he ever have a queen enough here to justify insta shoving the river rather than trying to take a small value bet and then obviously get stacks in when he min-check raises the river with his worse queen. At least we are getting value out of his bottom pair, should he not hold a queen and obviously get value for the times he does have a worse queen, meaning a win/win situation?

Villian has 3 pair alot here I think.

ramdeebam said:

I mean, if he holds an under pair, or 10 / 8 , which is how I felt at the time before he check raised, hence the reason I bet half pot on the river I was expecting his to call it off. When he min raised me, I can only ever put someone on a FH or indeed a worse queen in which case getting the chips in is fine.

I just don't understand what insta shoving the river does here, as for the many times he doesn't hold a worse queen but actually holds a middle pocket pair or part of the board then he will call it because of pot odds. He is never callling of a shove unless he has us beat or a worse queen, but does he ever have a queen enough here to justify insta shoving the river rather than trying to take a small value bet and then obviously get stacks in when he min-check raises the river with his worse queen. At least we are getting value out of his bottom pair, should he not hold a queen and obviously get value for the times he does have a worse queen, meaning a win/win situation?

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I'm saying as played shove over his river min raise. If you'd sized your bets better you could have easily made your river shove less than a PSB.

ramdeebam said:

He limps the button and I'm in the SB, as you can see.

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You've done it again !!
He min raised....I think.

In-game i'd just call this river. Anyone 3bet shoving river or is there literally no point?

He minraised btn and called a 3b

If you are willing to stack off vs him i would cb bigger, cb t bigger, and shove the river. That way you dont have this tough decision and its the most profitable line anyways.

How come you think he has 77-99 and a draw only and not Tx, Qx, JJ etc on the turn?

jbbb said:

In-game i'd just call this river. Anyone 3bet shoving river or is there literally no point?

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We need ~18% equity to call but >50% equity to raise.

Once he raises I'm not so confident we're ahead the majority of the time so I just like to call.
QJ/KQ aren't guaranteed to raise and hold 8 combos
TT/44 are locks to raise for 6 combos.

If villain is looser the dreaded J9 could be around for a whopping 16combos and a definite raise. the 4 combos of Q9 under go the same negation QJ/KQ do. The raise pretty much removes Tx/JJ from villains range also.

I would suggest making your 3bet considerably bigger. I always make my 3bets at least 3x and more when I am OOP like this. As for the river spot, it is hard to say without an idea of player type, but in general call.