$2 NLHE Full Ring: Crazy play test, I want this play torn to shreds pleaseds ?

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imwatcher

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Now I know everyone is going to say wtf limping with 35 early position etc, I get that that is looked down on, but I dont understand exactly what is so unprofitable about it. Either you get a free flop, and can go from there, or someone raises and you can represent amazing strength, meaning any low board you will usually take, and you know that with any resistance you are probably behind.
It can also lead to scenarios like this one where you hit very strong, and since its 2nl most people will stack off with top pair, or a flush draw (maybe they would not put me on a huge hand because they have no read at this level, but in general i think my preflop play looks pretty damn scary. So basically I am looking for some insightful answers into all the flaws (and possibly pros) of this kind of crazy play.

Full Tilt - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

MP+1: $2.00
LP: $2.03
CO: $2.00
BTN: $1.80
SB: $1.89
BB: $3.33
UTG: $2.04
UTG+1: $5.53
Hero (MP): $2.74

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02, CO posts DB $0.02

Pre Flop: ($0.05) Hero has 3:heart: 5:heart:

fold, fold, Hero calls $0.02, fold, fold, CO raises to $0.06, fold, fold, BB calls $0.04, Hero raises to $0.15, CO calls $0.09, BB calls $0.09

Flop: ($0.46, 3 players) 5:spade: A:spade: 3:club:
BB checks, Hero bets $0.32, CO calls $0.32, BB calls $0.32

Turn: ($1.42, 3 players) 9:club:
BB checks, Hero bets $1.00, CO raises to $1.53 and is all-in, BB raises to $2.86 and is all-in, Hero calls $1.27 and is all-in
 
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bgomez89

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Nope preflop looks like spew to me
 
No Brainer

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Please convert the hand history before you post, and don't include results, they don't mean anything to the people analyzing the hand.

Check this thread - https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...0/cash-game-hand-analysis-read-before-174514/

Search the forums for threads about limping, there have been many people that have thought they were onto something good by limping in pre flop with rubbish but ultimately it is not worth it. You say you are getting a free look at a flop, but by limping it is never free, you may as well be paying an extra set of blinds and trust me it's the blinds that kill most poker players...

Here is a recent thread that you should read. https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/limping-ace-rags-suited-172658/

Check out my overall winnings, with and without blinds...
 

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WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Big time losing play. Just transfer $$s to me if you wish to throw them away. :)
 
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imwatcher

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Please convert the hand history before you post, and don't include results, they don't mean anything to the people analyzing the hand.

Check this thread - https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...0/cash-game-hand-analysis-read-before-174514/

Search the forums for threads about limping, there have been many people that have thought they were onto something good by limping in pre flop with rubbish but ultimately it is not worth it. You say you are getting a free look at a flop, but by limping it is never free, you may as well be paying an extra set of blinds and trust me it's the blinds that kill most poker players...

Here is a recent thread that you should read. https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/limping-ace-rags-suited-172658/

Check out my overall winnings, with and without blinds...

Fixed, I have read about it, and suited connectors are pretty different to ace rags, I am never going to get money in with a flop of 5 8 2 with 53s but with A2s i am in a harder spot with a flop A65.... I understand it is looked down on, and i am not sure about it myself, which is why I want some intelligent discussion about it, also here I Limp raised which is pretty different to just limping.. I am pretty much against limping but I have done this play a few times and the most I really lose is 40c (reraise pre and a c-bet) or a big pot win, (or get sucked out of a big pot but that happens with any hand) I am curious about the math behind it (not sure really how to approach it because there are many different factors.

I have read about limping preflop, but as I have already said that is not really what I am trying to achieve (a cheap flop) but it is not a huge loss if that happens, as if will only be slightly -ev, so basically when i can reraise like the chance I got in the example I want to know whether that will be +ev or not.

Again I am not set on this play I just want some proper discussion on it (as it seems to me that it is quite different to people limping trying to see a cheap flop.)
 

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fx20736

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is your Full Tilt ID imawatcher? If so we were at the same table tonight.
 
No Brainer

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So you want to play a big pot oop with 35s? I couldn't think of anything worse...

If you want to re raise someone why not 3 bet them when you are on the button? Against some opponents this can be profitable with any two cards but not when you are oop like this.
 
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imwatcher

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So you want to play a big pot oop with 35s? I couldn't think of anything worse...

If you want to re raise someone why not 3 bet them when you are on the button? Against some opponents this can be profitable with any two cards but not when you are oop like this.

Because of how strong this looks, if you are playing and see that play preflop what would you think the person had? You would probably say oh its a donk with KK or AA I will call to see if I hit 2 pair or better and stack him.... or am I completely off there?
 
WVHillbilly

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Because of how strong this looks, if you are playing and see that play preflop what would you think the person had? You would probably say oh its a donk with KK or AA I will call to see if I hit 2 pair or better and stack him.... or am I completely off there?

Yeah you're off because the only thing yout opponents are thinking is:

"Ohhhh, pretty cards. I has pair. I cawl."

No one is putting you on a range and even if they are they're not folding anything postflop.
 
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imwatcher

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Yeah you're off because the only thing yout opponents are thinking is:

"Ohhhh, pretty cards. I has pair. I cawl."

No one is putting you on a range and even if they are they're not folding anything postflop.

If this was 50nl then... Ignore the fact that it is 2nl... Plus from what i have seen people will still be scared by this play..
 
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imwatcher

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Losing play at any level.

Give me reasoning. And no I do not think that someone is going to stack off when they call with 99 there and flop is A 4 5, or even A10 flop 10 8 5...... If it is such a stupid thing then it should be simple reasoning behind it, so show me the simple reasoning please. I am tired of the extremely simplistic responses..
 
WVHillbilly

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Give me reasoning. And no I do not think that someone is going to stack off when they call with 99 there and flop is A 4 5, or even A10 flop 10 8 5...... If it is such a stupid thing then it should be simple reasoning behind it, so show me the simple reasoning please. I am tired of the extremely simplistic responses..

Because the game is not won by taking 2 random cards and making people fold. You need equity to fall back on. Here you have little to none. What's you're play when the flop doesn't contain an Ace or when it does contain an Ace and they still don't fold? You'll NEVER make enough money playing trash hands this way to make them profitable. NEVER. Sorry to be so simple but it shouldn't be that that hard to understand.

But I'll tell you what, you play 35s and let's say 46s like this for say 100 hands from UTG and UTG+1 and if you make any money with them I'll double the amount won and send it to you. If you lose money with them you ship me that amount. So if you lose $30 you send me $30. If you win $30 I'll ship you $60. Sound good???
 
nabmom

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Some thoughts:

1) Any hand can make the nuts. Even a 27o. But that doesn't mean that it is a good hand to play for a long-term winning strategy. If you're playing to win money over time, you can't just look at an individual hand and then extrapolate from that. "Well, my 35o won this time, so it will always win." Or, "Limping from early position with a trash hand won, so..."

2) For the math of it: The top-ranked hands are those for a reason. Look at your hand with something like Pokerstove. The math doesn't support playing bad hands out of position. And a lot of decent hands don't make mathematical sense out of position.

3) Let's compare this to something like limping with small pocket pairs. You assume that you can see a cheap flop and instantly know if you've hit or not. If you hit, things are good. And you need to know when to get out--that includes raises and reraises pre-flop. The problem with doing that with Ace-rag or some other marginal hand is that, unless you hit the nuts or something close to it, you're going to have kicker problems or the bad end of a straight. So sometimes you might get lucky. But when you don't, you're going to be hurting.

4) I generally believe in a no-limp policy. If I want to profit over the long-run, I need to knock out worse hands pre-flop. Even when I have AA. Because anything can come on the flop, and when I limp I have a much harder time putting others on a hand--they could have anything.

5) All that being said, at a given table, with players you know something about, or some very specific situations (maybe a crazy raiser on your left so you limp with AA to trap him)-- you're mileage may vary for that specific hand.

But I don't see how it could ever be a long-term winning approach.
 
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You need equity to fall back on. Here you have little to none. What's you're play when the flop doesn't contain an Ace or when it does contain an Ace and they still don't fold?

I think I have HUGE fold equity here.. What happens when you c-bet with AK when you raised from early and board is 10 8 2 and they call? they will call that c-bet ALOT more than they would call a c-bet from a limp-raiser (surely???)

People are all for set mining, and I understand a set is a lot stronger than a 2 pair or a flush/straight draw, that is why I am trying to get alot of fold equity into this hand. Sure maybe not at the micros will you get many folds, if you had KQ and someone did my line of betting preflop and flop is Q 7 2 are you going to stack off with it? (if you had no history with me)

@Debpes I didn't win this hand, a guy rivered a flush, I think you think I am being more results orientated than I am, and this isnt the same as limping with other junk because of the reraise.

Basically what I am getting is that I do not have half as much fold equity as I seem to think I do/should?

Also I am not doing this every time I get the opportunity, I just do it sometimes (like 4 times in 20k hands) to mix it up..
 
BigJamo

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To tell ya the truth, limping with these cards is not the problem, the flop, and then the turn. I dont like your chances, bingo might be the way you will hit your number. But, then there is they likelyhood that they are playing AA, KK, AK, if so go for it.
 
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To tell ya the truth, limping with these cards is not the problem, the flop, and then the turn. I dont like your chances, bingo might be the way you will hit your number. But, then there is they likelyhood that they are playing AA, KK, AK, if so go for it.

What? Sorry I dont understand this at all..
 
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JMcCabe

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I disagree with the majority of the posters in this thread. OP, there is merit in your play.

I use a limp-3bet move UTG and UTG+1 quite regularly and find it to be highly profitable.

The main benefits of this move, especially at higher limits, is that it helps to disguise your hand when you make the same move with big pocket pairs - ie. you're balancing your range. This is helpful against thinking players and regs that you will play against regularly.

In essence though, what you're typically hoping for is: limp UTG, maybe another limper, late position raise, caller out of the blinds, now you make a big 3bet squeeze, as if you were slow playing a big pocket pair. The usual result is that everyone folds or you get one caller. cBet 1/2 to 2/3 pot on the flop and you'll usually take it down. This move gives you the lead, although usually OOP, in a bigger than usually sized pot, which you will win with a single cBet more often than not.

A good range of hands for this move, at least I've found, are most hands you'd play in late position (suited connectors, all pairs, suited gappers, suited Aces) which have the potential to flop big, or at least flop a good amount of equity.

However, you should use this move sparingly - not more than once or twice per table session (imo). It's actually a great metagame move, especially if you show down rags to win a big pot, because you can use it again when you have a big pocket pair later in the session and your opponent may decide to 4bet you light.

Some of the biggest risks:

a) doing this with big pocket pairs and no one raises; you have to be willing to fold your hand or play a small pot when the board gets ugly
b) doing this against unknown opponents; it's better to use this move against players you have seen making late position raises, flat calling 3bets, and folding to a single cBet with regularity
c) you will increase your variance in both directions, so you should make sure you're playing with decent BRM.

As I mentioned in numerous threads, I use 70BB buy-ins, play mostly NL200 and NL400, earn roughly the same amount at showdown and without showdown, and play a somewhat unorthodox style (my VPIP and PFR numbers have a pretty big spread), but it works for me.

GL with the UTG limp-3bet, one of my favourite moves. :)

PS - I highly doubt this would be a profitable play at NL25 and below
PPS - This move works much better in full ring than it does at 6max
 
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Sorry for the double post, but just so that you don't think I'm FOS, here are the graphs for my last 90k hands.

First is hands where I open-limp then 3bet.

Second is for where I simply open-limp.

Looks like total spew imo. :p

Limp 3bet UTG

Open Limp
 
WVHillbilly

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So out of 90K hands you've limp/3bet 92 times from EP? That's .5% of hands from those 2 positions (assuming roughly 10K hands per position). Oh yeah and you should have had AA basically 90 times in those 2 positions over that sample. Not hard to make money with Aces though I guess.

Show us how suited 1-gappers say 97s and worse have treated you when you limp/3bet them from the 1st 2 positions. :)
 
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Sigh. About to catch a plane from Macau back to Shanghai, but I'll take a look through my database when I get back.

The reason AA/KK gets paid off at these levels is because I also make this move with 97s, 55 or JTs.

Reread my post about people 4betting light.

Also, I don't always limp reraise with AA, most of the time I just open raise. It's a move that you use sporatically against certain opponents.

DUCY I'm only doing it .5% of the time?
 
WVHillbilly

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Of course. Because it's not profitable to play a bunch of hands OOP and playing them OOP after limping even less so. Which is what I've said since the beginning of the thread.

I bet you don't make the move nearly as often as you think you do with less than premium hands. Check your db when you get home. I'm interested.
 
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Over 17.5k hands hillbilly I have done this a total of 10 times with suited connectors/gappers and am down about a dollar, although if I had won the hand in this thread I would be up about 4$.. This is to small of a sample size to be worried at all about but it is not like I am doing this every chance I have gotten, it is just to mix it up.. If people see you showdown with that after that play it can get you alot more action as well.
 
WVHillbilly

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Over 17.5k hands hillbilly I have done this a total of 10 times with suited connectors/gappers and am down about a dollar, although if I had won the hand in this thread I would be up about 4$.. This is to small of a sample size to be worried at all about but it is not like I am doing this every chance I have gotten, it is just to mix it up.. If people see you showdown with that after that play it can get you alot more action as well.

It's FPS pure and simple and it will cost you more money than it ever makes you in meta game.
 
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