$2 NLHE Full Ring: [Beginner] When to call off valuing Q high straight on a double paired board?

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SC Gurgeh

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$2 NLHE Full Ring: [Beginner] When to call off valuing Q high straight on a double paired board?

This is the first hand I've posted. Hello everyone! I’m a very new player, so please don’t laugh too hard at my mistakes :p

The hand: https://www.pokerschoolonline.com/r....jpg&language=en&gameEntity=0&hash=02271D07DF

Basically, I'm trying to follow these strategy guides on low stakes cash games:
http://www.pokerlistings.com/strategy/texas-holdem-starting-hands-cheat-sheet
http://www.pokerlistings.com/strategy/ultimate-guide-to-crushing-live-12

Feedback on my analysis of the hand, and how I could’ve acted better would be appreciated.


Note: I don’t have a read on table dynamics or this player because I’m a new player / didn’t have enough time at that table to form any opinions.

My thinking during the hand from pre-flop to river:
Initial limp and then comes my first decision. The villain raises me 5x. At the time I think it’s a bit of a tight spot if I want to be following the strategy guides, as I have an easily dominated hand. The guides say to be wary of suited hands because they don’t flop good draws / hands very often, and that hands like QJ are easily dominated. Also, the sizing worries me. However, it is a bit large, so I thought it could be a bluff. However, given that my hand is suited, the value of the suited cards is high, and I’m in position, this makes me think my hand is strong enough to at least see a flop. This is probably a mistake, given that 1.5:1 is probably not the odds I’m looking for facing an out of position raiser. Villain opens up on the flop with a 1/3 pot bet. I think “yippee, open ended straight draw” and call. Given that I have 3:1 odds vs my 2.1:1 chance of hitting one of my 8 outs by the river and I have a feeling they’re bluffing, I feel this is a good situation to continue. Then it checks through to the river, and the villain plants a pot sized bet in my face. My thought process is “I’ve hit a straight, so I’ma build the pot as much as possible.” So it gets raised and re-raised, until eventually they put me all in. [I’m new to these, so did I include too much info here about the hand, thus biasing the viewer of the replay?]

Post-hoc thoughts on the outcome of the hand [watch replay first]:
Overall problem: A key difficulty I have found overall with my play was that when I have a strong made hand, but the board leaves the possibility for stronger hands open, I tunnel-vision focus on my good hand and either raise a lot into their monster or call their raises. Of course, tunnel vision is something that can be trained away from practice, but the Q remains, how do I deal with opponents betting, raising, 3-betting me etc. without having a strong ability to read hand ranges on the fly? What is your advice for a new player who’s trying to follow a strategy but can’t read ranges too well? Is it better to not think too much about what they have given that it’s low stakes and they’re probably an even worse player than me who got lucky and had a cooler, or am I missing something?

Regarding the bluff pre-flop, isn’t raising QTs in a cash game actually a bluff of sorts? Regarding the final betting war. At that point I was tunneling my straight, so I called the all-in eagerly. Now I’m thinking, at that point something very fishy (no pun intended) must’ve been going on for them to just keep re-raising me. Surely a bluff or weaker hand would’ve folded by now, right? And given that the board is paired twice, all they need is a 9 or 10 for a full house. I’m pretty sure the right move was to just call at some point, but I’m not quite sure what that point is. What do you think? I could easily be overthinking this, given that it’s a microstakes game.

I welcome suggestions on the hand, general playing style and on my post itself.

Thanks for having a look everyone. xx
 
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froggeedogs

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imo you should have folded once the two pair were down and you missed the str8 flush...........two many possibilities out there, even just A 10 or A 9
 
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SC Gurgeh

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Can u just post the hand

If you read the original post, there is a link where it says "The Hand". That's the hand replay.


imo you should have folded once the two pair were down and you missed the str8 flush...........two many possibilities out there, even just A 10 or A 9

Hm, that's what I've been thinking. Thanks for the response. Do you think there's anything else in there that I misplayed?
 
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ccres

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Hi. Regarding the post, as you suspected it's best not to include the outcome of the hand in the hand description as it can certainly bias the hand analyses you'll get.

Here are a few things to consider assuming the hand replayer reflected the hand accurately as it was played. Note that these comments would be very different if there was information on the villain or the stakes were higher:

1. The villain was in the small blind and had two limpers in front of him. I think you'll find that a lot of players at these stakes use 3x plus one bb for every limper in front of them as a standard open. So normally I wouldn't assume that a 5x with two limpers in front was anything but a standard open. In this particular instance though it is also a good spot for the SB to raise with a wide range in an attempt to get the limpers and big blind to fold and take it down pre since no one has shown any strength and there is already 3.5bb in the pot...so while I think calling the raise to 5x with QJs is on the edge, it probably isn't out of line.

2. You flop an open ended straight draw, backdoor flush draw, and have two over cards. That's not bad. The villain opens with a half-pot bet (according to the replayer not a 1/3 pot bet like you indicated in your description). Half pot is a pretty standard continuation bet size and doesn't really give away the strength of the Villains hand, imo you flopped enough to continue.

3. Board double pairs and Villain who raised pre and led turn now checks. So he either is worried about going from being ahead to now being behind (if he had a 7s or less pocket pair or had an overpair but was worried you may have hit a full house), was just bluffing and decided to give up, or has hit and is now slowplaying a full-house. With no information on the villain it's difficult to really make an educated guess. There is an argument for betting here, but imo a check is reasonable.

4. If it's me on the river in this situation with no information on the villain I just call the pot sized bet he opens with, it's passive but you really don't have much information on what you're up against. Imo the re-raise you made on the river is the most questionable part of how the hand was played. When he shoves over your re-raise at these stakes I think it's extremely likely you're beat. The only things you beat at this point are a really poorly played overpair or a bluff. That said given the size of your remaining stack at that point and the size of the pot a call isn't the worse decision in the world.

All in all though your QJs got beat by a QTs....usually you'll win that.
 
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SC Gurgeh

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Thanks for the analysis, it was quite helpful!

One quick question. What's the point of sizing things with 3x + 1x for each limper? Is it to create the right pot odds to increase fold equity, i.e. effect the pot-steal?

After reading your 3, it makes me think that I should've bet for information on the turn. Maybe 1/3-1/2 pot, to give them the right odds to give me information. Does that make sense you think?
 
froggeedogs

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only other thing was raise preflop in your position. gauge the response and see what happens on turn. there was not enough info to be had by you just calling villains raise.
 
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SC Gurgeh

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only other thing was raise preflop in your position. gauge the response and see what happens on turn. there was not enough info to be had by you just calling villains raise.

Wait, do you mean I should've raised on the turn to see what the V does?
 
froggeedogs

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no, I meant raise pre-flop. then once the flop was down you might have a better gauge of opponents hand.
 
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ccres

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Hi.

- re: 3x +1 per limper open: Usually the purpose of opening with a raise is a combination of building a pot and reducing the number of hands you have to play against post-flop. If there is more money then normal in the pot due to limpers your normal raise sizing is likely to get called more often because people have better odds to call. That is why some people increase the size of their standard opens when people have limped in front of them.

- re: betting for information on the turn in your posted hand. There are plenty of people that would advocate it so you can make a better decision on the river. I don't like it personally here when you have no information on the villain. You don't know if you have any fold equity and you get no information at all really if he just calls, which is what he's likely to do if he's slow-playing you. If he re-raises you, you can fold there though and save a little money on the river though.
 
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Xcoder

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I may have been a little more aggressive on the flop
 
Marcos mats

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This is the first hand I've posted. Hello everyone! I’m a very new player, so please don’t laugh too hard at my mistakes [emoji14]

The hand: https://www.pokerschoolonline.com/r....jpg&language=en&gameEntity=0&hash=02271D07DF

Basically, I'm trying to follow these strategy guides on low stakes cash games:
http://www.pokerlistings.com/strategy/texas-holdem-starting-hands-cheat-sheet
http://www.pokerlistings.com/strategy/ultimate-guide-to-crushing-live-12

Feedback on my analysis of the hand, and how I could’ve acted better would be appreciated.


Note: I don’t have a read on table dynamics or this player because I’m a new player / didn’t have enough time at that table to form any opinions.

My thinking during the hand from pre-flop to river:
Initial limp and then comes my first decision. The villain raises me 5x. At the time I think it’s a bit of a tight spot if I want to be following the strategy guides, as I have an easily dominated hand. The guides say to be wary of suited hands because they don’t flop good draws / hands very often, and that hands like QJ are easily dominated. Also, the sizing worries me. However, it is a bit large, so I thought it could be a bluff. However, given that my hand is suited, the value of the suited cards is high, and I’m in position, this makes me think my hand is strong enough to at least see a flop. This is probably a mistake, given that 1.5:1 is probably not the odds I’m looking for facing an out of position raiser. Villain opens up on the flop with a 1/3 pot bet. I think “yippee, open ended straight draw” and call. Given that I have 3:1 odds vs my 2.1:1 chance of hitting one of my 8 outs by the river and I have a feeling they’re bluffing, I feel this is a good situation to continue. Then it checks through to the river, and the villain plants a pot sized bet in my face. My thought process is “I’ve hit a straight, so I’ma build the pot as much as possible.” So it gets raised and re-raised, until eventually they put me all in. [I’m new to these, so did I include too much info here about the hand, thus biasing the viewer of the replay?]

Post-hoc thoughts on the outcome of the hand [watch replay first]:
Overall problem: A key difficulty I have found overall with my play was that when I have a strong made hand, but the board leaves the possibility for stronger hands open, I tunnel-vision focus on my good hand and either raise a lot into their monster or call their raises. Of course, tunnel vision is something that can be trained away from practice, but the Q remains, how do I deal with opponents betting, raising, 3-betting me etc. without having a strong ability to read hand ranges on the fly? What is your advice for a new player who’s trying to follow a strategy but can’t read ranges too well? Is it better to not think too much about what they have given that it’s low stakes and they’re probably an even worse player than me who got lucky and had a cooler, or am I missing something?

Regarding the bluff pre-flop, isn’t raising QTs in a cash game actually a bluff of sorts? Regarding the final betting war. At that point I was tunneling my straight, so I called the all-in eagerly. Now I’m thinking, at that point something very fishy (no pun intended) must’ve been going on for them to just keep re-raising me. Surely a bluff or weaker hand would’ve folded by now, right? And given that the board is paired twice, all they need is a 9 or 10 for a full house. I’m pretty sure the right move was to just call at some point, but I’m not quite sure what that point is. What do you think? I could easily be overthinking this, given that it’s a microstakes game.

I welcome suggestions on the hand, general playing style and on my post itself.

Thanks for having a look everyone. xx
We are not good without going wrong ok !! Trust your intuition and keep studying poker !!! We are together SC Gurgeh !!!
[emoji41] [emoji109]
 
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SC Gurgeh

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Thanks for the encouragement Marcos!
 
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