$2 NLHE Full Ring: AA lost to flush, was my cbet to low? Hand #01

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MikeMike109

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# Disclamer
I can't beat NL2, I have better days and worse days my current BB/100 is -6.59 over 22k hands. I will post hands as a learning exercise. Please be hard with me and challenge me as much. This is the only way for me to learn.
# End of Disclaimer

PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 104.5 BB (VPIP: 16.13, PFR: 12.90, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 93)
CO: 169 BB (VPIP: 26.32, PFR: 21.05, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)
BTN: 101 BB (VPIP: 20.83, PFR: 4.17, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
Hero (SB): 98 BB
BB: 201 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 18.75, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
UTG: 103.5 BB (VPIP: 8.11, PFR: 5.41, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 37)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A<font color='black'>♣</font> A<font color='red'>♥</font>

UTG calls 1 BB, MP raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 2.5 BB, fold, UTG calls 2 BB

Flop: (10 BB, 3 players) 7<font color='red'>♥</font> 2<font color='black'>♣</font> T<font color='red'>♥</font>
Hero bets 7.5 BB, fold, MP calls 7.5 BB

Turn: (25 BB, 2 players) 3<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero bets 17 BB, MP calls 17 BB

River: (59 BB, 2 players) 2<font color='red'>♥</font>
Hero bets 28.5 BB, MP raises to 58 BB, Hero calls 29.5 BB

MP shows 6<font color='red'>♥</font> 5<font color='red'>♥</font> (Flush, Ten High)
(Pre 22%, Flop 34%, Turn 25%)
Hero mucks A<font color='black'>♣</font> A<font color='red'>♥</font> (Two Pair, Aces and Twos)
(Pre 78%, Flop 66%, Turn 75%)
MP wins 169 BB

Multiway flop I probably had the best hand bet for value here.
Turn still safe bet bigger
River when he 3bet me I was putting him on JJ-QQ

Should I bet bigger post flop to avoid such situations, what should be the right size than?
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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# Disclamer
I can't beat NL2, I have better days and worse days my current BB/100 is -6.59 over 22k hands. I will post hands as a learning exercise. Please be hard with me and challenge me as much. This is the only way for me to learn.
# End of Disclaimer

PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 104.5 BB (VPIP: 16.13, PFR: 12.90, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 93)
CO: 169 BB (VPIP: 26.32, PFR: 21.05, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)
BTN: 101 BB (VPIP: 20.83, PFR: 4.17, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
Hero (SB): 98 BB
BB: 201 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 18.75, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
UTG: 103.5 BB (VPIP: 8.11, PFR: 5.41, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 37)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A<font color='black'>♣</font> A<font color='red'>♥</font>

UTG calls 1 BB, MP raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 2.5 BB, fold, UTG calls 2 BB

Flop: (10 BB, 3 players) 7<font color='red'>♥</font> 2<font color='black'>♣</font> T<font color='red'>♥</font>
Hero bets 7.5 BB, fold, MP calls 7.5 BB

Turn: (25 BB, 2 players) 3<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero bets 17 BB, MP calls 17 BB

River: (59 BB, 2 players) 2<font color='red'>♥</font>
Hero bets 28.5 BB, MP raises to 58 BB, Hero calls 29.5 BB

MP shows 6<font color='red'>♥</font> 5<font color='red'>♥</font> (Flush, Ten High)
(Pre 22%, Flop 34%, Turn 25%)
Hero mucks A<font color='black'>♣</font> A<font color='red'>♥</font> (Two Pair, Aces and Twos)
(Pre 78%, Flop 66%, Turn 75%)
MP wins 169 BB

Multiway flop I probably had the best hand bet for value here.
Turn still safe bet bigger
River when he 3bet me I was putting him on JJ-QQ

Should I bet bigger post flop to avoid such situations, what should be the right size than?

Your biggest problem here is preflop. 3bet to about 9 or 10 BB.
 
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MikeMike109

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Your biggest problem here is preflop. 3bet to about 9 or 10 BB.

Whenever I do it everyone folds. Opening AA is a bit problematic for me I would like to bring people to play however when I do it such things happends
 
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ninoverm

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Trapping by flatting aces is fine here and there, but generally you should be raising. Especially at micro stakes. And especially out of position (basically: if you're gonna slow play KK+, please be in position). Obviously you have to balance your 3-betting range with some weaker hands as well, but let's start by 3-betting aces.


I would like to bring people to play however when I do it such things happends

To touch on this: exactly. With aces, you'd rather be heads-up than 4-ways, believe me. You don't wanna 'bring people to play', you want 'bring someone to play'.

You put yourself in a tough spot on the flop as well. You don't wanna give your opponents a free card, so leading out seems natural. The thing is: you don't have the pre-flop betting lead, and leading out on a T72hh flop just doesn't make much sense. Would say a check-raise is the best option here. Sizing is fine btw. Just the bet itself isn't.

As played, fine to continue turn. Good sizing.

Have to say I'm not sure whether it's a check or a bet on the river. I guess you're getting paid off by some tens, JJ and QQ. But you can't just rule out flushes, which are pretty likely as well considering the two flats. I'm leaning towards check-call... But that may be too nitty. I don't know.

IMO the river is either check-call or bet-fold. This may sound extremely exploitative and anti-GTO, but at these micro-stakes people will never bluff raise here. Especially not bluff minraise. It just seems like a flush trying to squeeze that little bit more out of you. He should never raise JJ or QQ here.

You having the ace of hearts makes this quite interesting. If you were deeper you may have been able to bluff-shove here, knowing your opponent doesn't have the nuts. But that requires a good opponent as well. In this case it means your opponent isn't raising you with the nuts, but if he's ever gonna bluff here, it should be with the ace of hearts. So you're both blocking the nut flush AND the nut flush blocker. So if he will ever find a bluff with the nut flush blocker, that's ruled out as well.

I say crying fold. Don't forget to cry.
 
WVHillbilly

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Whenever I do it everyone folds. Opening AA is a bit problematic for me I would like to bring people to play however when I do it such things happends

That's just not true. Sometimes they fold and you might remember those times more but I assure you step 1 in getting your WR to positive is being more aggressive, both pre and post flop.
 
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doom

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yes just 3bet preflop and table select more i see no fish on your table and you are playing nl2 wtf
 
marieemce

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Why you just call?! I think you shoud 3-bet here, put something like 7BB preflop and 6/5s is out of the hand.
 
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MikeMike109

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Yeah thanks for hints....so similar hand just second ago. Now was opening with 4BB and still no luck. This time 6 Max but I think it don't change as much as most was done on flop

PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (UTG): 113.5 BB
MP: 57.5 BB (VPIP: 13.64, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 22)
CO: 106 BB (VPIP: 24.32, PFR: 18.92, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 37)
BTN: 75 BB (VPIP: 22.58, PFR: 12.90, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 31)
SB: 96 BB (VPIP: 76.92, PFR: 18.46, 3Bet Preflop: 8.57, Hands: 68)
BB: 128 BB (VPIP: 16.07, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 56)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A<font color='black'>♣</font> A<font color='red'>♥</font>

Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, fold, BTN calls 5 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (11.5 BB, 2 players) Q<font color='red'>♦</font> 8<font color='red'>♦</font> 3<font color='black'>♣</font>
Hero checks, BTN bets 2 BB, Hero raises to 9.5 BB, BTN calls 7.5 BB

Turn: (30.5 BB, 2 players) K<font color='black'>♣</font>
Hero bets 29.5 BB, BTN calls 29.5 BB

River: (89.5 BB, 2 players) 2<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero checks, BTN bets 19 BB, Hero raises to 69.5 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 12 BB and is all-in

Hero shows A<font color='black'>♣</font> A<font color='red'>♥</font> (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 88%, Flop 63%, Turn 75%)
BTN shows K<font color='red'>♦</font> A<font color='red'>♦</font> (Flush, Ace High)
(Pre 12%, Flop 37%, Turn 25%)
BTN wins 146 BB

I bet river failry big but still he checked. Maybe I shouldn't re-rise turn
 
Drowy

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Screams for more agressive play imo
 
Aces2w1n

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2nd hand villains never folding... mosy players would be flipping on flop

We cant fold on river.

Make a note on this guy ... his small bet is to bait and perhaps we can save a lot of money from this esp if he does bet small with nutty hands. He loses and we gain long term
 
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ninoverm

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Yeah thanks for hints....so similar hand just second ago. Now was opening with 4BB and still no luck. This time 6 Max but I think it don't change as much as most was done on flop

PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (UTG): 113.5 BB
MP: 57.5 BB (VPIP: 13.64, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 22)
CO: 106 BB (VPIP: 24.32, PFR: 18.92, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 37)
BTN: 75 BB (VPIP: 22.58, PFR: 12.90, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 31)
SB: 96 BB (VPIP: 76.92, PFR: 18.46, 3Bet Preflop: 8.57, Hands: 68)
BB: 128 BB (VPIP: 16.07, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 56)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A<font color='black'>♣</font> A<font color='red'>♥</font>

Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, fold, BTN calls 5 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (11.5 BB, 2 players) Q<font color='red'>♦</font> 8<font color='red'>♦</font> 3<font color='black'>♣</font>
Hero checks, BTN bets 2 BB, Hero raises to 9.5 BB, BTN calls 7.5 BB

Turn: (30.5 BB, 2 players) K<font color='black'>♣</font>
Hero bets 29.5 BB, BTN calls 29.5 BB

River: (89.5 BB, 2 players) 2<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero checks, BTN bets 19 BB, Hero raises to 69.5 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 12 BB and is all-in

Hero shows A<font color='black'>♣</font> A<font color='red'>♥</font> (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 88%, Flop 63%, Turn 75%)
BTN shows K<font color='red'>♦</font> A<font color='red'>♦</font> (Flush, Ace High)
(Pre 12%, Flop 37%, Turn 25%)
BTN wins 146 BB

I bet river failry big but still he checked. Maybe I shouldn't re-rise turn

3x is fine. Don't differ your raising sizes based on your hands.

Continue flop! Check-raising is simply too awkward here.

Check-call or check-fold river. Don't know what you're trying to accomplish by check-shoving.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Yeah thanks for hints....so similar hand just second ago. Now was opening with 4BB and still no luck. This time 6 Max but I think it don't change as much as most was done on flop

PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (UTG): 113.5 BB
MP: 57.5 BB (VPIP: 13.64, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 22)
CO: 106 BB (VPIP: 24.32, PFR: 18.92, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 37)
BTN: 75 BB (VPIP: 22.58, PFR: 12.90, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 31)
SB: 96 BB (VPIP: 76.92, PFR: 18.46, 3Bet Preflop: 8.57, Hands: 68)
BB: 128 BB (VPIP: 16.07, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 56)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A<font color='black'>♣</font> A<font color='red'>♥</font>

Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, fold, BTN calls 5 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (11.5 BB, 2 players) Q<font color='red'>♦</font> 8<font color='red'>♦</font> 3<font color='black'>♣</font>
Hero checks, BTN bets 2 BB, Hero raises to 9.5 BB, BTN calls 7.5 BB

Turn: (30.5 BB, 2 players) K<font color='black'>♣</font>
Hero bets 29.5 BB, BTN calls 29.5 BB

River: (89.5 BB, 2 players) 2<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero checks, BTN bets 19 BB, Hero raises to 69.5 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 12 BB and is all-in

Hero shows A<font color='black'>♣</font> A<font color='red'>♥</font> (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 88%, Flop 63%, Turn 75%)
BTN shows K<font color='red'>♦</font> A<font color='red'>♦</font> (Flush, Ace High)
(Pre 12%, Flop 37%, Turn 25%)
BTN wins 146 BB

I bet river failry big but still he checked. Maybe I shouldn't re-rise turn

Pre is fine. Just cbet the flop (about 9BB). Turn is good. Just put him in on the river (he only has 31BBs left and we don't want him checking behind when he thinks he has showdown value.
 
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braveslice

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First hand:
Whenever I do it everyone folds. Opening AA is a bit problematic for me I would like to bring people to play however when I do it such things happends
Yes, more often than not they fold, that is life, sometimes they have KK, AK, QQ and more importantly make a mistake sometimes and you profit. But let say they just fold, you profit 5.5 big blinds. You need to win that once per 100 hands to be dominating your level ( if other plays are +-.)

IF you decide to call, it takes a lot of skill, and simple bet-bet-bet line gets you destroyed. They are both nits, they give you value only with the same hands you would profit much more by 4betting. Simplest non negative line in right place is call-call-fold

Not 4betting is very wrong in this situation, because limping UTG is prepared to call a big raise (nits usually have a pair here and they will set mine, so if you get action from from him post flop your over pair is no good). Also MP has shown aggression, players in 2NL might get very excited in these situations and are ready to do big mistakes. Also MP loses his marples quite often if your image is aggressive, and he just think you are squeezing.

I assume you play nit style especially 3bet%? Tags and nits put you on set if you show interest in limped pot, so countering your passive pre play by limping does not help at all making profit, betting over pair is almost close of overvaluing your hand compared to your assumed range :D. People who don’t realize this are bad enough to call your raise even with tens.
 
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ninoverm

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To add: MP raise size is also very polarized. He either is strong or weak. If he is weak you don't get value (usually) out of him post flop, if he is strong you get most value by 4betting.



What, pre-flop? 3x is pretty standard and actually pretty small with a limper behind. Or do you mean something else?
 
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braveslice

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Lol I already took it out =) just because I wasn't sure anymore. Normal size is 3bb+1bb per limper, so 4bb is standard, but at 2NL the size sometimes larger too. Forexample I would go 10 cents (5bb) because I would assume UTG calls his whole range, and mostly fold to CB too. If he does not fold to CB I would go to pot control mode (what ever that would mean given the board).

So my original idea was that some players likes to bet small to keep villain in and some like to bet small because they have bad hand (they wan't to build pot (this originates from playmoney fields), but also they gain edge on the flop). There shouldn't be any other reason.
 
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MikeMike109

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Ok so let me summarize what I have learn just to make sure I understand concept properly

I should avoid limping with AA mainly for two reasons it allows people with speculative hands to see the flop cheap and may also introduce more people to play post flop where it should be better for me to play post flop again one opponent. In addition it is harder to play post-flop if I only limped.

Question: What if I'm first to act should I open 3BB or bigger , how to avoid people with speculative hands here?

Post Flop - if I was able to 3bet pre-flop continue beting but what should be than my line on a river if river card can give me opponent flush or straight. Should it be check-call/check-fold?
 
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braveslice

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how to avoid people with speculative hands here?

You can raise larger yes, but the reason is that you think they will call that size with speculative hands.

So if you have a huge fish (like some are) you can go up to huge sizes you think he still will call. So your goal is not to prevent people for seeing the flop with speculative hands, especially if they are fish like, but charge for them to do call (rest is skill, but by calling they already donated you a bit money, given equal post flop skill). However, when you don’t raise they can’t do a mistake and you don’t profit anything. Also because errors are additive by calling every mistake they make post flop is multiplied in terms of bb. What you can't really do is bet small because then again they can't make a mistake because they have the odds to call.

My talk is simplified because my skill level but also because I strongly believe the game really should be really simple in 2NL (and 5NL), extra ‘plays’ usually ends up costing you (because your mistakes, and also not letting villain to do mistakes)

Oh good candidates for betting large are any two suited cards players, some might limp and call 18 cent raise with J6s =)
 
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