$2 NLHE Full Ring: 3-betting a fish, please help me with bet sizing

F4STFORW4RD

F4STFORW4RD

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Villain Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 61/10/2.8

Still have three people left to play behind me with stats of 13/9, 14/0, 4/4 and 11/8. Have only played 40 hands so far with the 61/10 fish to my right in MP+1, notes say "bluffer, carries on betting with nothing, half PSB on river with ace high". Have done fairly well at isolating the fish in previous hands, as the guys to my left are quite tight. My stats are 20/15, mostly from hands against the fish.

Poker Stars - $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em (9 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $2.30
BB: $0.65
UTG: $2.51
UTG+1: $2
MP: $1.93
MP+1: $2.17
MP+2 Hero: $2.21
CO: $3.33
BTN: $2.24

Pre-flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP+2 and dealt :qc4: :qs4:
3 folds, MP+1 raises to $0.10

Do I want to size my bet to isolate the fish, or should I price it lower to encourage more people into the pot?

Advice please - what bet sizes would you consider to be most profitable in this situation?
 
JOEBOB69

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i normally 4x the first raise so i would make it .40
 
Nathan Williams

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I think calling is perfectly fine here. I don't mind a 3bet either though.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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I think calling is perfectly fine here. I don't mind a 3bet either though.

I think 3-betting >>>>>>> calling, and you're implying the opposite. I can't really see why we wouldn't want to make a big pot against a player who is almost never going to fold.
 
jbbb

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I think calling is perfectly fine here.
Please explain. Seems like a beautiful 3bet spot. Isolate the fish IP with a premium hand. Just calling means the tighter players behind may want to call with a speculative or raggy ace kind of hand. Also the other stuff pot building, SPR etc etc
 
Nathan Williams

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The more that I look at the hand the more I think I prob 3bet here more often than flat. I don't care about the nits behind. They are very straightforward to play against.

The reason I flat here sometimes is that he made it 5x instead of 3 or 4x. I think I 3bet 100% of the time if he makes it one of those amounts. With a 5x our 3bet creates a pot so big that I don't want to fold very often postflop which puts me in some difficult spots on Axx and Kxx boards.

If I just flat I am still playing the hand like the nuts on all undercard boards and able to get away on some nasty ones or let him barrel his air and get a cheaper showdown.
 
c9h13no3

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With a 5x our 3bet creates a pot so big that I don't want to fold very often postflop which puts me in some difficult spots on Axx and Kxx boards.
We flop an overpair or better 62% of the time, and we're in position and win a few of the pots where an A or K flops. Idk, that "I don't want to put $ in becomes sometimes I lose it" argument seems like a crutch to me.

If I just flat I am still playing the hand like the nuts on all undercard boards and able to get away on some nasty ones or let him barrel his air and get a cheaper showdown.
Wat?
 
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baudib1

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Forget about postflop, I'd 3-bet on the large size mostly because we want him to shove. Given the size of the pot, we won't be folding postflop very often regardless of what hits.
 
F4STFORW4RD

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Well I wondered whether I was being too aggressive by raising it to 40c, but from what you guys are saying I could have made it even bigger :p

Thanks for the advice, this is how it panned out...


Poker Stars - $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em (9 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com


SB: $2.30
BB: $0.65
UTG: $2.51
UTG+1: $2
MP: $1.93
MP+1: $2.17
MP+2 Hero: $2.21
CO: $3.33
BTN: $2.24


Pre-flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP+2 and dealt :qc4: :qs4:
3 folds, MP+1 raises to $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, 5 folds, Hero returned $0.30


Final Pot: $0.23


Showdown:
Hero mucks his hand
Outcome: Hero wins $0.23
 
Nathan Williams

Nathan Williams

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I just want to be clear. I 3bet most of the time here as well. However, you guys have to view this hand more as how do we get the most value and make our decisions as simple as possible. Flatting is not a crime here. Just because we have a hand as strong as QQ in position does not mean we have to auto 3bet it every single time.

This guy is not a maniac, he is a fish. Also, he made it 5x. I actually expect him to have something fairly decent here most of the time. And if he is going to actually fold to 3bets a lot as happened in this hand then it's a travesty, for us. Lastly this is by no means a fistpump get it in if we get 4bet. Again, this guy isn't a maniac, the title is misleading.

We don't have to play bingo all the time in poker especially at these stakes by creating enormous pots preflop. They are so bad postflop and are going to stack off with far worse than they should anyways.
 
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baudib1

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He's certainly not a maniac but it is an auto 3-bet fistpump call get it in pre. He's a classic "doesn't like to fold, doesn't want to get pushed around" fish.
 
F4STFORW4RD

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This guy is not a maniac, he is a fish. Again, this guy isn't a maniac, the title is misleading.

He's certainly not a maniac... He's a classic "doesn't like to fold, doesn't want to get pushed around" fish.
OK so can you guys let me know what would make someone a maniac, rather than a fish? Presumably it's not purely based on stats of 61/10, or making a half pot-sized DB on the river when the other player has been showing a lot of aggression on previous streets, so I'm just wondering how you make that call. Maybe the fact that he folds in this situation, which proves that he IS capable of folding sometimes?
 
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baudib1

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A maniac would play something like 45/35 and shove the river you're talking about instead of half-potting it.
 
c9h13no3

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Also, he made it 5x. I actually expect him to have something fairly decent here most of the time. And if he is going to actually fold to 3bets a lot
Do you see why this makes no sense? You're trying to support your argument for not 3-betting by saying "villain raised 5x, he thinks he has good cards". If villain has a good hand, he's likely not folding.

We made a read that a player who raised 5x with 60/10 stats has a hand he likes and he has a tendency not to fold preflop. Three betting seems obvious. He folded, that happens, but it was still the right play to pump this up preflop.

Shouldn't a poker coach be held to a higher standard?
 
Nathan Williams

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Look, I'm not going to reply any further on this hand. I stated an opinion. You are welcome to disagree with it. To then go on to say that I must be held to some higher standard because you disagree with my opinion is ludicrous.

You get to post anonymously on a forum but I have to be more accountable because I have chosen to be transparent about who I am? Really solid logic there. My results in these games speak for themselves. Who are you?

I have seen a lot of grumbling on forums that many coaches or well known players only post when they have something to sell. Maybe this is why?
 
c9h13no3

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You get to post anonymously on a forum but I have to be more accountable because I have chosen to be transparent about who I am?
No, because people will take your opinion more seriously. If you live in an insane asylum, no one cares about your opinion on how to build a rocket ship. But if you've got a degree in rocket science, you better damn well know what you're talking about.

Since you've chosen to have "DTB Coach" under your username, you should be expected to at least make a good argument.
 
ALL IN CLUBS

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No, because people will take your opinion more seriously. If you live in an insane asylum, no one cares about your opinion on how to build a rocket ship. But if you've got a degree in rocket science, you better damn well know what you're talking about.

Since you've chosen to have "DTB Coach" under your username, you should be expected to at least make a good argument.

Sounds like he's made a good Argument C9, He said he would be calling to extract the most money he could out of the fish Postflop in position, he said most of the time he would 3 bet, as he stated the nits behind he's not worried about why ?? Cuz prob they are folding most of the time anyway..:D I think if a ACe or King doesn't hit the board the fish will be min betting all streets if he has small pair or calling all your bets to try to catch or if he has mid pair he's not folding. Imo, we all know how i play lol:D Clearly there isn't just one right way to play this hand and win money, i am sure if you had 10 pro coaches look at this you think all 10 are saying 3 bet this ??
 
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acky100

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i am sure if you had 10 pro coaches look at this you think all 10 are saying 3 bet this ??

100% yes, and in his defence blackrain said he would too most of the time. I just really dont see how calling here given conditions would ever be more +EV than 3betting.

Like you said all in clubs, he might min bet into us 3 streets or something shitty - We dont want him to bet small into a small pot and if we want him to bet in to us at all it's in a bloated pot, and really we dont want him to bet into us because hes a 60/10 and we can make much more by betting constantly in to these guys ourselves.

You said he will keep calling our bets - why not let him do this in a bloated pot?

Also, OP said he's managed to successfully isolate him before i just dont see any reason to think we cant isolate him now so its a perfect spot to bloat the pot preflop.
 
ALL IN CLUBS

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Proverb:: Theres more than one way to skin a cat **Meow**
 
jbbb

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Shouldn't a poker coach be held to a higher standard?

Bit harsh imo, he is only giving his opinion. Poker isn't a 100% science but if you can't really justify why you'd take a certain line not a lot of people are going to agree. I'm still 3bing 100% because i've yet to hear any reason to not.

Also as for
With a 5x our 3bet creates a pot so big that I don't want to fold very often postflop which puts me in some difficult spots on Axx and Kxx boards.
I think a player like this is so easy to play postflop it shouldn't matter too much. Yes, you may fold incorrectly sometimes but most of the time when the A hits his betting will tell you whether or not he has it.

Finally, I think a player like this will call 3bets way too wide with hands we know he should fold. Eg AJs, AQo so getting in 20% of your stack when he has 3 outs seems pretty decent to me (not even including the times he'll stack on Jxx flops w/ AJ)
 
Stu_Ungar

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We don't have to play bingo all the time in poker especially at these stakes by creating enormous pots preflop. They are so bad postflop and are going to stack off with far worse than they should anyways.

Your not playing bingo at these stakes. People are so bad that they will stack of with things like ATo and 33 and KQ and all kinds of hands they perceive to be good.

Therefore your mission in life is to get as much money into the pot as is humanly possible whilst your hand is ahead of their range. Right now you are likely to be a 66% favorite (that means for every $ you get in the pot now you win 66c) thats not bingo.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Sounds like he's made a good Argument C9, He said he would be calling to extract the most money he could out of the fish Postflop in position, he said most of the time he would 3 bet, as he stated the nits behind he's not worried about why ?? Cuz prob they are folding most of the time anyway..:D I think if a ACe or King doesn't hit the board the fish will be min betting all streets if he has small pair or calling all your bets to try to catch or if he has mid pair he's not folding. Imo, we all know how i play lol:D Clearly there isn't just one right way to play this hand and win money, i am sure if you had 10 pro coaches look at this you think all 10 are saying 3 bet this ??

At 2NL its not a very good argument.

Why would we 3bet here.. because we can get called by worse hands, therefore not 3betting is giving up value.

"but what if the flop has an ace on it?" .. who cares? what if the flop has no ace but he hits a set? what if he holds AA? what happens if the flop contains no draws but he hits a flush by the river? these are all things that do not concern us.

We 3 bet because we gain value by doing so.
 
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