$2 NLHE Full Ring: 3 of a kind vs possible flush?

RSemjonovs · Jul 4, 2018

I played this hand a while ago and this hand is still bothering me...
Villain was a loose passive player with VP: 30, PF:13 and 3B: 9.1 based on 81 hands.
I know it's not enough to know your opponent perfectly, but it's a starting position.
Well, should I have called or did I make the right move?

Pacific, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

Hero (SB): $2.47 (123.5 bb)
BB: $2.60 (130 bb)
UTG+2: $2.46 (123 bb)
MP1: $1.91 (95.5 bb)
MP2: $0.83 (41.5 bb)
MP3: $2 (100 bb)
CO: $0.80 (40 bb)
BTN: $2.08 (104 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A♥ A♠
UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.07, BB folds, MP1 calls $0.05

Flop: ($0.16) A♦ 9♦ 6♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.36) J♦ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.18, MP1 raises to $1.74 and is all-in, Hero folds

Results: $0.72 pot ($0.04 rake)
Final Board: A♦ 9♦ 6♣ J♦
Hero mucked A♥ A♠ and lost (-$0.35 net)
MP1 mucked and won $0.68 ($0.33 net)

PaxMundi · Jul 4, 2018

vs this villain type it's probably just a flush they have so many combos they limp call with so folding is ok.Check calling is also a decent option on the turn.

JustSoPro · Jul 7, 2018

I'd say that was a good fold, I don't know about leading out on the turn with that board though. You are holding 2 aces so chances are your opponent doesn't have an ace, with the straight draw getting their I don't see many hands you are actually drawing value from(66, 99, JJ, 78s). I'd check the turn and call if it was a REASONABLE bet sizing.

TDTODDY · Jul 8, 2018

Three card to flush is a perfect bluff shove. I would have called, and at worst you have a pile of outs.

formertroll · Jul 8, 2018

I also call the shove here. at worst you have 12 outs to the full house plus the remaining ace. at worst against you he's already made the flush, anything else he's drawing 9 outs to the flush.

shoving is a weird play on his part, high risk low reward and i'd make him pay...hopefully.

RSemjonovs · Jul 11, 2018

That's what I was thinking... I could have called (considering I had 12 outs to make full house). But considering that he had played 81 hands with me (I don't know anything about this player), I chickened out and folded. I'm still learning this game since I started my poker online in the beginning in 2018. Well, either he had flush or bluff, he made me fold...
Thanks for the support guys!

nml · Jul 11, 2018

If he has a flush, the shove here is terrible since he’s got the nuts, based on your betting pattern you are likely to put your stack in, and pretty much the only thing that will call is your hand (maybe pocket J/9/6) - and you didn’t. So he got no value for his hand.

Based on his info and the way the hand played out, I’d say he’s got the flush. He limps and then calls, so we can rule out AJ, JJ. Since he only called your flop bet and THEN shoved on the river, I’m taking out 66, 99, A6, and A9. Just be weird to call there and then shove - especially since the flush is in play now.

Loose, passive, and a .01/.02 game makes this a super obvious flush play - try to limp in with two suited cards out of position, flopping four to the flush means he wants to see the turn as cheap as possible, then tries to get his stack in when he hits.

I also strongly disagree with the idea of checking that board. If anything, bet bigger since you don’t want flush draws to stay. I’d say any A, any 6, any 9, and obviously any two diamonds will call your pot bet. People at this level can’t fold when they hit something.

And disagree about checking the turn. Almost EVERYONE is going to assume your cbet was junk or that you are scared of the flush, so they’ll bet pretty big here, and you’ll have no idea if they are bluffing or if they hit.

Unless you’ve got a history of him running big bluffs, good fold.

RSemjonovs · Jul 13, 2018

nml said:
If he has a flush, the shove here is terrible since he’s got the nuts, based on your betting pattern you are likely to put your stack in, and pretty much the only thing that will call is your hand (maybe pocket J/9/6) - and you didn’t. So he got no value for his hand.

Based on his info and the way the hand played out, I’d say he’s got the flush. He limps and then calls, so we can rule out AJ, JJ. Since he only called your flop bet and THEN shoved on the river, I’m taking out 66, 99, A6, and A9. Just be weird to call there and then shove - especially since the flush is in play now.

Loose, passive, and a .01/.02 game makes this a super obvious flush play - try to limp in with two suited cards out of position, flopping four to the flush means he wants to see the turn as cheap as possible, then tries to get his stack in when he hits.

I also strongly disagree with the idea of checking that board. If anything, bet bigger since you don’t want flush draws to stay. I’d say any A, any 6, any 9, and obviously any two diamonds will call your pot bet. People at this level can’t fold when they hit something.

And disagree about checking the turn. Almost EVERYONE is going to assume your cbet was junk or that you are scared of the flush, so they’ll bet pretty big here, and you’ll have no idea if they are bluffing or if they hit.

Unless you’ve got a history of him running big bluffs, good fold.

Thanks for the advice, this helps me a lot! Cheers!

fhruhrhit · Jul 13, 2018

more big prefrop raise.
at least 4.5bb
coz you are SB

RSemjonovs · Jul 13, 2018

fhruhrhit said:
more big prefrop raise.
at least 4.5bb
coz you are SB

You mean, the earlier the position, the bigger the raise?

Nathan Williams · Jul 13, 2018

Raise more preflop, bet more on the flop, bet more on the turn and call the shove.

fhruhrhit · Jul 14, 2018

Yes
when you are OOP(out of position),
you needs more bigger bet

PaxMundi · Jul 15, 2018

BlackRain79 said:
Raise more preflop, bet more on the flop, bet more on the turn and call the shove.

I agree with what you say but, would you fold the turn the way the hand was played ?

RSemjonovs · Jul 16, 2018

BlackRain79 said:
Raise more preflop, bet more on the flop, bet more on the turn and call the shove.

fhruhrhit said:
Yes
when you are OOP(out of position),
you needs more bigger bet

But if I do raise more from OOP with hands like JJ-AA, players will probably notice in a while. Or is this a normal thing to do to avoid flush draws, straight draws etc?

Krypton173 · Jul 16, 2018

Honestly i don't think it's a flush, at 2nl people slow play flushes and go crazy with 2 pairs or sets, and the occasional K♦, i think you should call.

mihuhunt · Jul 16, 2018

RSemjonovs said:
I played this hand a while ago and this hand is still bothering me...
Villain was a loose passive player with VP: 30, PF:13 and 3B: 9.1 based on 81 hands.
I know it's not enough to know your opponent perfectly, but it's a starting position.
Well, should I have called or did I make the right move?

Pacific, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

Hero (SB): $2.47 (123.5 bb)
BB: $2.60 (130 bb)
UTG+2: $2.46 (123 bb)
MP1: $1.91 (95.5 bb)
MP2: $0.83 (41.5 bb)
MP3: $2 (100 bb)
CO: $0.80 (40 bb)
BTN: $2.08 (104 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A♥ A♠
UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.07, BB folds, MP1 calls $0.05

Flop: ($0.16) A♦ 9♦ 6♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.36) J♦ (2 players)
Hero bets $0.18, MP1 raises to $1.74 and is all-in, Hero folds

Results: $0.72 pot ($0.04 rake)
Final Board: A♦ 9♦ 6♣ J♦
Hero mucked A♥ A♠ and lost (-$0.35 net)
MP1 mucked and won $0.68 ($0.33 net)

Oke. So let's take a look at MP1's perspective. MP1 is not a great position. MP1 Limped anyways. MP1 even called the raise preflop. Flop came and MP1 called HERO's raise which means 2 things. Either MP1 had something or was waiting for something. I guess MP1 did not have AJ or JJ because of his preflop play. He could have had A6 or A9 or 66 or 99. But if MP1 had one of these hands I am sure MP1 would have reraised HERO on the flop to prevent HERO from catching a possible flush, plus MP1 can easily think in that situation that he is the strongest on the flop with one of those hands...But MP1 just called HERO. (In my opinion, that raise on the flop was not enough by HERO). This means to me that MP1 was waiting for flush beause as soon as the flush hit he went all in. I am guessing that MP1 had either Q10 or KQ or K10 of diamonds and as soon MP1 hit the flush of diamonds MP1 went all-in. And your fold was a really good fold, I think I would have done the same..

RSemjonovs · Jul 16, 2018

mihuhunt said:
Oke. So let's take a look at MP1's perspective. MP1 is not a great position. MP1 Limped anyways. MP1 even called the raise preflop. Flop comes and MP1 called HERO's raise which means 2 things. Either MP1 has something or is waiting for something. I guess MP1 did not have AJ or JJ because of his preflop play. He could have had A6 or A9 or 66 or 99. But if MP1 had one of these hands I am sure MP1 would have reraised HERO on the flop to prevent HERO from catching a possible flush, plus MP1 can easily think that he is the strongest on the flop with on of those hands...But MP1 just called you. (In my opinion, that raise on the flop was not enough by HERO). This means to me that MP1 was waiting for flush beause as soon as the flush hits he goes all in. I am guessing that MP1 had either Q10 or KQ or K10 of diamonds and as soon MP1 hit the flush MP1 went all-in. And your fold was a really good fold, I think I would have done the same..

You analyzed like an murded case, haha. This helps me a lot. Looks like I made a great decision. I could even have called, since I had 12 outs to make a full house. Oh well, that’s only experience.

MrSkinny · Jul 16, 2018

Right Fold, Wrong Flop Bet(?)

As Villain is Loose/Passive, almost certainly I'd have folded at the turn after their shove.

I think the problem for you was at Flop, your bet was not high enough to push off a Loose/Passive player from a flush draw. In fact it's perfect for declaring you're on a flush draw. A higher bet here (at least pot IMO, maybe more with loose players) declares your confidence - if they fold, winning something is better than nothing and will even out (expected value) over the years. If you get beaten down the street by a loose player getting lucky, so be it.

YMMV!

Good luck,
Mr Skinny

mihuhunt · Jul 16, 2018

RSemjonovs said:
You analyzed like an murded case, haha. This helps me a lot. Looks like I made a great decision. I could even have called, since I had 12 outs to make a full house. Oh well, that’s only experience.

Well I had to..it was a killing scene, they killed your hand and the possible suspect is flush!

MrSkinny · Jul 16, 2018

mihuhunt said:
Well I had to..it was a killing scene, they killed your hand and the possible suspect is flush!

LMAO

So, in Pokluedo: The flush did it in the turn with the jack!

I'll get my coat...

RSemjonovs · Jul 16, 2018

mihuhunt said:
Well I had to..it was a killing scene, they killed your hand and the possible suspect is flush!

MrSkinny said:
LMAO

So, in Pokluedo: The flush did it in the turn with the jack!

I'll get my coat...

LMFAO

And thanks for the advice, MrSkinny. Looking forward to bet more on the flop in hands like this.

MrSkinny · Jul 16, 2018

You're welcome mate.

Have fun!

RSemjonovs · Jul 21, 2018

MrSkinny said:
You're welcome mate.

Have fun!

Seems it works for me. Raising more on the flop with hands like JJ-AA, or any other good hand (when there is possibly a flush draw on the board), it increases fold % from villains. I’d rather win some tiny pots than lose a big pot. :bandit:

$2 NLHE Full Ring: 3 of a kind vs possible flush?

RSemjonovs

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