$2 NLHE Full Ring: $2 NLHE Full Ring: Pocket 9's Flop Fold

ILIKEFISH31

ILIKEFISH31

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Winning Poker Network - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $1.11
BB: $1.00
UTG: $1.95
UTG+1: $0.50
MP: $1.33
MP+1: $0.98
Hero (CO): $1.00
BTN: $0.58

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has 9:diamond: 9:club:

fold, fold, MP raises to $0.04, MP+1 calls $0.04, Hero raises to $0.12, fold, fold, fold, MP raises to $0.24, fold, Hero calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.55, 2 players) 8:diamond: 8:club: J:diamond:
MP bets $0.17, fold

MP wins $0.53

I figured that either an 8 or a J were well within villain's range and reluctantly had to lay this hand down, as well. Good fold?
 
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baudib1

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Why are you 3-betting/flatting a 4-bet preflop?
 
LD1977

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What 8/J in his 4bet range in 2NL???? It is either AK or a big pair most of the time, if he is aggrotard fish then ATCs.
Considering his minraises and flop sizing, I raise here for value. If you don't like raising, then call and see what happens.

Serioulsy, WTF was the preflop about?
 
Blobweird123

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Ok so what is your plan in this hand? If you are setmining, you are risking 25% of your stack, to flop a set around 12% of the time. This obviously doesn't add up. If we were deeper, I could see 3betting your nines, but with the current stacks, i'm flatting. Also, as played I would've flatted the flop and seen if he gives up on the turn.

Also, why not give a hand at 6max? Honestly I used to think full ring was better for beginners, but at 6max you can hand read much better only facing 5 opponents, and it makes for an easier opening/3bet range for us as well.
 
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baudib1

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I wouldn't recommend 6-max for OP.
 
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twohaha

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Flat preflop you are too short to be light 3-betting.
Calling the flop bet, it likely missed the opponent's range.
 
ILIKEFISH31

ILIKEFISH31

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I wouldn't recommend 6-max for OP.

You keep saying things like "table selection" and even when I ask you in PM what your posts meant you won't explain them to me. It's pretty clear you just like to rag on beginners.

6-Max will be my only real option as soon as I go up to 5NL and beyond. I'm in the US. You really don't seem to understand that the games are limited for us and we kind of have to play what's available in front of us. We can't sit around and pick a nice, cozy table with a bunch of fish at it. We need to play in the games that are running.

Do you understand?
 
ILIKEFISH31

ILIKEFISH31

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Ok so what is your plan in this hand? If you are setmining, you are risking 25% of your stack, to flop a set around 12% of the time. This obviously doesn't add up. If we were deeper, I could see 3betting your nines, but with the current stacks, i'm flatting. Also, as played I would've flatted the flop and seen if he gives up on the turn.

Read you loud and clear. Especially short stacked - Definitely see your logic. Thanks.
 
John A

John A

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You keep saying things like "table selection" and even when I ask you in PM what your posts meant you won't explain them to me. It's pretty clear you just like to rag on beginners.

6-Max will be my only real option as soon as I go up to 5NL and beyond. I'm in the US. You really don't seem to understand that the games are limited for us and we kind of have to play what's available in front of us. We can't sit around and pick a nice, cozy table with a bunch of fish at it. We need to play in the games that are running.

Do you understand?

One other friendly suggestion. There's a lot of helpful people on here, but it's going to be hard to get advice from the better players if you become rude. If you want to learn, don't blame the forum, or the advice here. You have only yourself to blame. Ask questions, be open to being wrong, and drop the ego as much as possible because it's going to take a beating.
 
Mr Sandbag

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Winning Poker Network - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $1.11
BB: $1.00
UTG: $1.95
UTG+1: $0.50
MP: $1.33
MP+1: $0.98
Hero (CO): $1.00
BTN: $0.58

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has 9<font color='red'>♦</font> 9<font color='black'>♣</font>

fold, fold, MP raises to $0.04, MP+1 calls $0.04, Hero raises to $0.12, fold, fold, fold, MP raises to $0.24, fold, Hero calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.55, 2 players) 8<font color='red'>♦</font> 8<font color='black'>♣</font> J<font color='red'>♦</font>
MP bets $0.17, fold

MP wins $0.53

I figured that either an 8 or a J were well within villain's range and reluctantly had to lay this hand down, as well. Good fold?

Just call pre for reasons already stated, and at least call flop - if not raise. His sizing is really bad on the flop. It looks like a scared bet who is ready to insta-fold to a raise. He could have 10-10 and hates the flop.


One other friendly suggestion. There's a lot of helpful people on here, but it's going to be hard to get advice from the better players if you become rude. If you want to learn, don't blame the forum, or the advice here. You have only yourself to blame. Ask questions, be open to being wrong, and drop the ego as much as possible because it's going to take a beating.

I agree with this. But I also know where OP is coming from here. The first response he got in this thread was "Why are you 3-betting/flatting a 4-bet preflop?" How is that helpful? OP posted the hand because he wants advice on how to play this situation. Responding with a question like that is pointless and is the same as stating "You played it badly." What do you expect OP to say? You're just going to (rightfully) correct him anyway. If you don't have the time to offer an explanation about why he shouldn't have taken this preflop line, don't respond at all. There's no need to clutter the thread with questions we all know OP doesn't have an answer to (if he did, he probably wouldn't have taken the line).
 
Blobweird123

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One other friendly suggestion. There's a lot of helpful people on here, but it's going to be hard to get advice from the better players if you become rude. If you want to learn, don't blame the forum, or the advice here. You have only yourself to blame. Ask questions, be open to being wrong, and drop the ego as much as possible because it's going to take a beating.

This very much so. Baudib isn't being a dick, he's being honest.

As to Sandbag: Baudibs' first comment here was fine, he put out a question, albeit a difficult question for a beginner, to get an idea of where OP is at. OP could simply reply with, I don't know I thought it was a good spot for value, and from there he could've had people explain why this is wrong here.

Ego is a bitch in poker. It'll destroy us. I have it, you have it, everyone has it. And I don't care how long we've been playing or how far we've come, we will always have it to some degree. But as John said, get used to being berated about your play because there's no need for people to sugar coat. I'd rather someone get right down to it and say "Fold pre, your plan was garbage" and then when asked why I get an explanation rather than being coddled first.
 
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DunningKruger

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Meh. I don't see anything wrong with asking the OP questions about his thought process that maybe get him to think a bit about about why he's taking the actions that he is. Unless he's clicking buttons at random say by flipping a coin or something then surely there was some degree of logic that influenced his decisions.
 
Mr Sandbag

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This very much so. Baudib isn't being a dick, he's being honest.

As to Sandbag: Baudibs' first comment here was fine, he put out a question, albeit a difficult question for a beginner, to get an idea of where OP is at. OP could simply reply with, I don't know I thought it was a good spot for value, and from there he could've had people explain why this is wrong here.

Ego is a bitch in poker. It'll destroy us. I have it, you have it, everyone has it. And I don't care how long we've been playing or how far we've come, we will always have it to some degree. But as John said, get used to being berated about your play because there's no need for people to sugar coat. I'd rather someone get right down to it and say "Fold pre, your plan was garbage" and then when asked why I get an explanation rather than being coddled first.

I agree - I don't want to be coddled either. But I do expect helpful replies. OP asked the question, we should provide answers/opinions, not ask questions we know OP isn't going to have an answer for anyway. Case in point, there have already been two really helpful answers regarding his preflop play before OP answered Baud's question.
 
Blobweird123

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I agree - I don't want to be coddled either. But I do expect helpful replies. OP asked the question, we should provide answers/opinions, not ask questions we know OP isn't going to have an answer for anyway. Case in point, there have already been two really helpful answers regarding his preflop play before OP answered Baud's question.

Yeah I mean we all approach HA's differently but I don't think Baudibs approach is disrespectful or anything. Like DK and myself both said already, it puts him on the spot/under pressure to come up with his logic for doing such a thing and in turn, we can see where to truly help. The way I and others handled it can actually be a detriment to improvement in that he just gets an answer handed to him without testing out his theory of analysis first ya know?

Edit: In fact, a couple months back, I used to bring up a ton of discussions with Scourrge on skype about spots and there were times where he'd put me on the spot and say well why are you doing this (without telling me why it's bad) and i'd be like umm crap ugh well umm I ugh well I don't know, for fold equity? or w/e the case was at the time, and as much as it sounds stupid, THAT embarrassment pushed me to improve that much more.
 
John A

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I agree with this. But I also know where OP is coming from here. The first response he got in this thread was "Why are you 3-betting/flatting a 4-bet preflop?" How is that helpful? OP posted the hand because he wants advice on how to play this situation. Responding with a question like that is pointless and is the same as stating "You played it badly." What do you expect OP to say? You're just going to (rightfully) correct him anyway. If you don't have the time to offer an explanation about why he shouldn't have taken this preflop line, don't respond at all. There's no need to clutter the thread with questions we all know OP doesn't have an answer to (if he did, he probably wouldn't have taken the line).

I've only read two posts by OP, but both of them were blaming advice he got on the forum for his poor play.

I actually think the first question is helpful, and personally I think you lean more when you have to answer other people's questions, then get spoon fed advice. This is probably the philosophy degree in me coming out, but as long as we're all respectful, questions are much more beneficial to growth than handing people answers. Questions tend to make people think for themselves, and if they aren't helpful answers, the great thing about the internet is we can always ignore them. ;)
 
ILIKEFISH31

ILIKEFISH31

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I've only read two posts by OP, but both of them were blaming advice he got on the forum for his poor play.

I actually think the first question is helpful, and personally I think you lean more when you have to answer other people's questions, then get spoon fed advice. This is probably the philosophy degree in me coming out, but as long as we're all respectful, questions are much more beneficial to growth than handing people answers. Questions tend to make people think for themselves, and if they aren't helpful answers, the great thing about the internet is we can always ignore them. ;)

1) I was in the middle of a tough session. I didn't mean to "blame" the forum - I was simply explaining that I was listening and attempting to follow the directions this forum laid out for me.

2) I don't mind the question that he posed I just would think he would at least be available to respond to further queries by me. I PM'd him twice about his question after he posted it and he failed to respond both times. It makes it seem like he just wanted to point and laugh a little, you know?

I'm not thin skinned. I don't really care about anything but results and productivity. I can assure you that my priority is getting better at poker - Not my ego. All of that said...it would be a little easier to converse on these forums as a beginner without the 10 post limit. Every time I begin getting into a discussion about one of these hands I have to wait 24 hours to continue it. I understand you're trying to cut down on spam but no other poker forum on the internet has the restriction that this forum has in place.

I'm also not posting any of the hands where I stack someone for 2-3 BI's. And naturally - why would I? I'm posting hands I know I played bad so I definitely don't need someone to say "You played this hand horribly". I know. That's why I'm posting it.
 
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Blobweird123

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1) I was in the middle of a tough session. I didn't mean to "blame" the forum - I was simply explaining that I was listening and attempting to follow the directions this forum laid out for me.

2) I don't mind the question that he posed I just would think he would at least be available to respond to further queries by me. I PM'd him twice about his question after he posted it and he failed to respond both times. It makes it seem like he just wanted to point and laugh a little, you know?

I'm not thin skinned. I don't really care about anything but results and productivity. I can assure you that my priority is getting better at poker - Not my ego. All of that said...it would be a little easier to converse on these forums as a beginner without the 10 post limit. Every time I begin getting into a discussion about one of these hands I have to wait 24 hours to get continue it. I understand you're trying to cut down on spam but no other poker forum on the internet has the restriction that this forum has in place.

I'm also not posting any of the hands where I stack someone for 2-3 BI's. And naturally - why would I? I'm posting hands I know I played bad so I definitely don't need someone to say "You played this hand horribly". I know. That's why I'm posting it.

Get used to it now. It'll happen far too often. This forum can be good and Baudib can be nice, but doesn't mean that it's gonna go your way every time either. Don't be discouraged. Just keep learning and improving and posting hands to be analyzed. As much as you didn't like the way this thread went down did it not teach you some things about how this way played poorly?
 
ILIKEFISH31

ILIKEFISH31

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As much as you didn't like the way this thread went down did it not teach you some things about how this way played poorly?

Absolutely...and I appreciate it. I'm not going anywhere. I plan on being pretty active once this 10 post a day limit is behind me.
 
Blobweird123

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Absolutely...and I appreciate it. I'm not going anywhere. I plan on being pretty active once this 10 post a day limit is behind me.

I think (don't quote me on this) it ends after 65 posts, so you only have 4 more days of this and then you're "free" lol
 
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RUNRRUNRTO

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You're either flatting, jamming or folding. Preferably just flatting with nines. It's not an ideal hand to 3 bet with. What was your goal here?
 
ILIKEFISH31

ILIKEFISH31

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You're either flatting, jamming or folding. Preferably just flatting with nines. It's not an ideal hand to 3 bet with. What was your goal here?

I thought I got a read on the villain that he would fold to my 3bet. Aside from that I wanted him to call with a marginal holding and hopefully flop a set or full house. If I didn't, I was folding and out of the hand. I didn't anticipate a 4bet back over the top of me.

If I could do this hand over I wouldn't even 3bet but simply call. If, however, I was in the same situation facing the same 4bet I would just fold out as I'm obviously beat and only going to lose money on later streets.
 
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baudib1

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OP:
I replied to several of your emails, sorry if I missed one. In the end I'm not sure how much quick replies in pms matter, because the sum of your questions adds up to: "How do I play poker?"

There are layers upon layers of learning needed to succeed in this game, and learning comes from playing lots of hands, studying, discussing hands, reading books. You need to learn how to learn, which includes things like: what certain stats mean; how to present hand histories in a way that will yield good responses; what kind of information you need to each decision.

There are certain things you've said on here that clearly aren't true and reveal a distinct lack of understanding very fundamental concepts. That's OK, because none of us were born with innate poker knowledge. Most concepts you will only learn through losing and frustration. Let me address a few of them:

1. I can't bet my big hands big because everyone just folds.

All of us know that this simply isn't true. Everyone at NL2 is terrible, and terrible players aren't terrible because they fold too much. You may be going through a very short stretch where you have a big hand and don't get any action, and spots where you try to bluff and you get called down light. That happens. But we've already seen a hand you've posted where you limped a marginal hand, flopped the nuts, slowplayed it till the river and then you wonder why you didn't get value.

2. TAGs play something like 19/11. You don't really understand what playing TAG means. You're not too loose, which is a great start, and you seem to want to play TAG, which is also a good idea. But you aren't doing it.

Playing TAG means folding hands facing a raise that you would have raised yourself if it had folded to you. It means folding countless hands that are decent that you would have won with had you played. It means rarely ever flatting a raise preflop. It means folding hands in the SB when it's limped to you. It means driving the action on most streets.

What it doesn't mean is 3-betting J9s vs. an EP raise. It doesn't mean raising in spots with hands you should play without knowing what you will do facing a reraise.

I'd recommend playing even tighter than you are. Play pocket pairs and AQ, AK only. If it folds to you on the button (fat chance), then expand your range to a few more hands: AJs, KQ. With smaller pairs, open if it folds to you, call if someone raises. If you flop top pair, an overpair, a set or nut flush draw with overs, bet until someone shows extreme aggression or the board gives you a reason not to -- then re-examine your holdings vs. your opponent's likely holdings. This is amazingly, ridiculously tight, but you will make money playing this tight at NL2. This will have you playing less than 9% of hands but will give you experience in playing pots with a huge equity advantage or with hands that will be very easy to play postflop (i.e. if you have 22 and flop a 2, you go with it, if you don't flop a set you just give up).

3. As noted in 2, you don't really understand what stats mean. To you, someone playing 35/10 or 40/9 is wild and loose. These are actually the stats of very standard passive fish. You don't know what an aggressive player looks like because you probably haven't encountered many.

Download Poker Stove and plug in some hands, plug in ranges, plug in ranges on certain board textures, and look at what the equity calculations say.

Search this forum for beginner's tips, John A's thread, and read the Golden Archives.
Read the following books: Theory of Poker, Harrington on Cash Games, Baluga Whale Easy Game Vols. 1-3.
 
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ILIKEFISH31

ILIKEFISH31

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I appreciate your post and you taking the time to try and help me. I do. The only issue, which others have already mentioned, is the bitter hostility you project in your posts. Like I'm some scumbag because I'm learning the game. Like only a pederast would three bet pocket 99's or play J9o OOP.

I'm studying, playing, and learning. Anyone in my position would appreciate the time and energy that you or any other experienced player puts into helping them. If your goal is to help and make the forums a productive place for beginners ...you need to relax just a tad. I'm sure there are numerous venues in which you would display idiocy in your first weeks and months of trying them. I certainly wouldn't hold it over your head though. You're just learning. How can you be expected to know the ins and outs?

Please - Try to relax a little bit.
 
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baudib1

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I'm totally relaxed, I read Tendler.

You're playing for real money that people work hard to earn or steal. Lessons don't come easily.
There are tons of times to 3-bet 99 and to play J9, but the important part is that you ask yourself why you're doing it. It's the question, not the answer, that's important.
 
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