$2 NLHE 6-max: What do you do?

ConDeck

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HH20150802 Halley #2 - $0.01-$0.02 - USD No Limit Hold'em

pokerstars Zoom Hand #138872544962: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02)

2015/08/02 22:58:55 WET [2015/08/02 17:58:55 ET]

Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button

Seat 1: foxsurf ($0.15 in chips)

Seat 2: endrju1993 ($2.60 in chips)

Seat 3: aaferreira76 ($3.35 in chips)

Seat 4: Kanonkulspel ($6.35 in chips)

Seat 5: fishi1996 ($3.89 in chips)

Seat 6: ConDeck ($11.17 in chips)

endrju1993: posts small blind $0.01

aaferreira76: posts big blind $0.02

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to ConDeck [Ad Jd]

Kanonkulspel: folds
fishi1996: raises $0.04 to $0.06
ConDeck: calls $0.06
foxsurf: folds
endrju1993: folds
aaferreira76: calls $0.04

*** FLOP *** [7d 5d 5h]

aaferreira76: bets $3.29 and is all-in

fishi1996: folds

ConDeck: ???

Unknown Villain so no notes or stats.

I gave him the following range so opted for the fold as I'm like 38-40% against this range calling 170bb into 179bb pot (Negative EV):

77+,A5s,65s,A5o,65o

However, does typical villian making this sort of play ever have any bluffs in his range here? Weaker Flush draws or AK/AQ? Some weird open ender? Can we remove some hands from his range?

I am more than comfortable with the fold, just wanted to hear your guys thoughts here? How wide would you call this shove? What range?
 
c9h13no3

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That range seems pretty fair. I would think most 5x hands would try to be a little sneakier, but who knows what these droolers are thinking.

I hate folding these types of hands, but it's the right move in a spot like this.
 
6

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You made the right decision. Usually in situations like this, the villain has an overpair like 88 or TT and is trying to protect their hand. Sometimes they'll have a flush draw or open-ended straight draw, but most of the time you're behind.
 
atlantafalcons0

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Aren't we missing the fact that we should be 3betting this?
 
ConDeck

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3betting AJs from the CO vs a UTG+1 open is not something I do often against an unknown without stats/reads at these stakes. From the button yes, AQs from CO yes but AJs against an unknown is a call for me most of the time.

I am not averse to 3 betting light, over the last 20K hands I have a 3bet% of about 10.5%. My 3 betting range differs by position and villain obviously but is usually the top of my range + the best hands I was going to fold if that makes sense.

By flatting here I keep in his range that I crush while disguising my own hand strength. 3 betting folds out a lot of these hands (unless villain is overly loose and/or a calling station and I have no info to indicate this on this player as of yet) and playing this way allows me to extract maximum value IP from these hands.

I do think it is pretty close however at these stakes and down to personal preference. I am open to arguments for a 3 bet though?
 
atlantafalcons0

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It's just pricing in the big blind giving him odds to call with junk. You're in position with a big suited ace in a six max game. Idk, my first inclination is to 3bet. Maybe I'm wrong? Anyone else have any input on this?
 
ConDeck

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It's just pricing in the big blind giving him odds to call with junk. You're in position with a big suited ace in a six max game. Idk, my first inclination is to 3bet. Maybe I'm wrong? Anyone else have any input on this?

I totally see your point and find it valid but I think the difference in EV is negligible at best.

This is a zoom table however, not sure if I mentioned, and the games are inherently tighter than standard ring games due to the fast fold feature and I certainly find people have a tighter defending range from the big blind, not taking there pot odds and happy to move on to the next hand so junk defends are rarer (in most cases).

I think this is a 50/50 spot call/3 bet tbh, just I prefer the call here against an unknown deep stacked, I am not looking to play for stacks 165BB deep with AJs, I hate getting 4 bet and having to relinquish a hand that can flop decent equity and crush's a good portion of his opening range yet very little of his 3bet calling range and even less of his 4 bet range.

I am actually more inclined to 3 bet AJo here as it doesn't flop as well....

As I said earlier, from the button I am 3 betting this hand often and nearly always from the blinds.

I would also be interested to hear what others think about this?
 
J

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It's just pricing in the big blind giving him odds to call with junk. You're in position with a big suited ace in a six max game. Idk, my first inclination is to 3bet. Maybe I'm wrong? Anyone else have any input on this?

I feel the same way as OP most of the time assuming the original opener is an unknown. I tend to err on the side of caution and keep the weaker part of his range in until I know more about him. I have no idea if this is the optimal play or not, probably more personal style then anything else. I think it's close though, and there are arguments for both sides.

As for the hand I face-palm and fold. It sucks to fold there, but you've only invested 3bb. It could be nothing or it could be the big blind came along with 75o (argument for 3betting pre ;) ) and just figured what the hell. I probably only call with close to the nuts when something like this specific spot comes up, but it just happens so rarely for me I couldn't tell you for sure.
 
FaelN

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Im calling this, why the hell would he do this with the five or sevens
 
ConDeck

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Im calling this, why the hell would he do this with the five or sevens


I am absolutely fine with the fold in this spot against an unknown this deep, I lost 3BB, I was more interested in peoples opinions on calling range in this spot tbh..
 
c9h13no3

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Please elaborate? Why not 3bet this IP.
Nothing worse calls, nothing better folds, we're dominated when the money goes in on Jxx and Axx boards. Oh, and we want that fish in the BB to call.

You know, all the reasons.
 
atlantafalcons0

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Nothing worse calls, nothing better folds, we're dominated when the money goes in on Jxx and Axx boards. Oh, and we want that fish in the BB to call.

You know, all the reasons.

So you're advocating just folding preflop then?
 
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atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

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Nope.

I'm advocating that you should consider checkers.

Ok, I was trying to understand your point and you're flaming and derailing this thread.

Thanks for being a valued member of this community. (<- sarcasm)
 
Delvuter

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Nothing worse calls, nothing better folds, we're dominated when the money goes in on Jxx and Axx boards. Oh, and we want that fish in the BB to call.

You know, all the reasons.

No idea how this quote thing works. How is JXX bad with AJ? When I read these forums I feel like I am in an alternate universe. I think I might just be a BIG fish. I would be kinda thinking JXX was kinda decent for my AJ.
 
c9h13no3

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No idea how this quote thing works. How is JXX bad with AJ? When I read these forums I feel like I am in an alternate universe. I think I might just be a BIG fish. I would be kinda thinking JXX was kinda decent for my AJ.
In a 3-bet pot, the hands that stack off with you on a JXX flop are JJ+. KJ type hands are discounted since many can fold those to a 3-bet. Same with AXX, you're stacking off against AK, AQ. It's just a spot where you're turning a great hand with good equity into a bluff by over playing it.
 
VGShaa

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I play this limit cash games, I have to say here raise and 3-bet even a weak ace. Just call here is the best solution. You could make a 3-bet and a player aaferreira76 in the BB could to fold, but only pay 4 cents and see a flop with his stack right play. Most likely he has a hand 5X or small pocket pair. Easy fold here for us, AJ is not a monster hand, only 6 cents paid, why take the risk 30% of your stack.
 
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In pre flop i 3-bet with AJs...
but i just fold in this spot, u dont need this call, dont need risk your stack on spot
 
Delvuter

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In a 3-bet pot, the hands that stack off with you on a JXX flop are JJ+. KJ type hands are discounted since many can fold those to a 3-bet. Same with AXX, you're stacking off against AK, AQ. It's just a spot where you're turning a great hand with good equity into a bluff by over playing it.

I thought we were talking about 3-betting, not stacking. You said 3-betting AJ on an JXX was bad. Yeah, I aint stacking with it, but I sure am going to 3-bet with it. If someone re-raises my 3-bet then I consider what to do next and stacking is not one of my options.
 
c9h13no3

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I thought we were talking about 3-betting, not stacking. You said 3-betting AJ on an JXX was bad. Yeah, I aint stacking with it, but I sure am going to 3-bet with it. If someone re-raises my 3-bet then I consider what to do next and stacking is not one of my options.
No. The scenario I was describing was 3-betting AJ preflop, and then stacking off on a JXX flop or AXX flop.

A generic example shown below. Note that even if your opponent will call with KJ preflop when you 3-bet, the rest of your opponent's likely range will crush you.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
356,400 trials (Exhaustive)
board: J:spade: 4:club: 2:diamond:
AJ 43.20% (118,000 wins, 71,922 ties)
AJ, KJ, JJ+ 56.80% (166,478 wins, 71,922 ties)
 
atlantafalcons0

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No. The scenario I was describing was 3-betting AJ preflop, and then stacking off on a JXX flop or AXX flop.

A generic example shown below. Note that even if your opponent will call with KJ preflop when you 3-bet, the rest of your opponent's likely range will crush you.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
356,400 trials (Exhaustive)
board: J<font color='black'>♠</font> 4<font color='black'>♣</font> 2<font color='red'>♦</font>
AJ 43.20% (118,000 wins, 71,922 ties)
AJ, KJ, JJ+ 56.80% (166,478 wins, 71,922 ties)

Then why even call preflop vs that range?
 
c9h13no3

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my first inclination is to 3bet
The scenario I was describing was 3-betting AJ preflop
Then why even call preflop vs that range?
We're not talking about calling, we're talking about 3-betting (pay attention).

If your opponent raises JJ+, AJ+, KJ+, then by all means fold preflop. But that's pretty rare. You will see some mega-nits raise a range like that UTG, and you should fold AJo against them preflop.

But in a 2NL game when an unknown raises from UTG, I feel pretty confident you can call with AJs pre and have enough JT/AT/AXs/KJ/22 type hands in their range that you can play profitably against them postflop on JXX and AXX flops.

(Do I really have to spell it out that much?)

Anyways, there's more reading on this sort of thing if you want it at 2+2.
 
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