$2 NLHE 6-max: Villain donks. How to proceed?

T

teambuilder

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No Limit Hold'em $0.01/$0.02
pokerstars
5 players
Formatted by pokercopilot.com: Poker HUD for Mac and Windows

Stacks:
UTG - UTG ($2.00)
CO - Hero ($3.08)
BTN - BTN ($3.42)
SB - SB ($2.00)
BB - BB ($2.16)

Preflop: ($0.03, 5 players) Hero is CO with T<font color='red'>♦</font> T<font color='red'>♥</font>
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, 1 fold

Flop: 6<font color='black'>♣</font> 4<font color='red'>♥</font> K<font color='black'>♠</font> ($0.14, 2 players)
SB bets $0.10, 1 fold, Uncalled bet of $0.10 returned to SB

Total Pot: $0.14

SB wins $0.14

Villain: 18/10/7/5/72 [vpip/pfr/3b/af/# hands] Also villain has not donked in 3 previous opportunities.

Is it just me, or is donk betting more popular recently? How do we handle this one with 2nd pair when we have not seen villain donk before? Only 2 cards help my hand improve. Fold seems tight but we may face more bets. What do you think about Raise/Fold?
 
C

ccres

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Hi. If it's a nitty 2NL game I probably fold here in the situation you gave (villain 18/10 - first donk bet in 70+ hands). You didn't post your stats but if you were playing reasonably tight and x3 is your normal open there is no reason for the villain to think a King on the flop couldn't hit your range.

If you had seen a pattern or history of out of position leads or just odd aggression from the villain then re-raising with a pair like that is a good option imo. Even if the villain happens to have hit top pair and have a decent kicker at these stakes often a smallish early re-raise can freeze action all the way through and kind of give you control of the hand.
 
Lorpugo

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i play exactly the same microstakes and it is a reraise situation here. If he has king and you are raisor he will check to you to trap. if he has pocket 4s or 6s he will check again. If he has straight draw 5 7 he will check. So calling from small blind and leading into you makes sense with 99 88 and maybe jj
 
Figaroo2

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I never fold here to a single bet from a villain with an AF of 5. This is the single most important factor in the hand. This is a very high AF and although you have not seen him donk lead it means he bets or raises on the vast majority of occasions.
18/10 is pretty tight for 6 max and an overall 3bet of 7% is probably nearer ten v button steals. so he calls with his tier 2 hands. 22-88 AJos and some broadways KQ KJ QJ and Axs. Off of his stats I would fancy more pairs and Ax than a Kx but there are enough kings to give up to continued heavy betting.
So he could be leading out with his entire range here on a board like this figuring you will have whiffed it often enough.
If you fold a tier 1 hand like TT here you will be folding the best hand too often imo. Stick the hand and his range into an equity calculator and have a look.
I call and float to see what he does on the turn. I'd plan to fold if another overcard comes and he bets but anything under a Ten I want to see a river card and a 3rd barrel before folding here.
TT is really no different to QQ here, would you fold QQ?
Still folding and losing just 3bb isn't a big mistake but shows a lack of postflop confidence.
 
Aces2w1n

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So villain donks us... what to expect.

Well this guy seems like your standard reg... wont do anything crazy.

Folds a good one most likely but i woudnt be afraid of the king. People with a strong K will raise. So donking to me says he has like a weak broadway king at worse... but has a set in most cases hoping u have a strong k.

Why else would he bet :)

If hes likely to do this with worse we can utilize position and call 1 street.... he will check turn and giveup most times but bet again if hes good
 
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T

teambuilder

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fold: two votes
reraise: one vote
call/float: one vote

Seems like there is no right answer :)
 
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braveslice

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Well you can always call once, so you can change my vote to call if you like. And I'm quite sure ccres don't mind too much calling once either. Personally imo calling twice is not that bad either :D Also Aces said fold or call.

It's problematic though in 2NL (and 5NL and 10NL it seems), if one decides to be aggressive he will mostly continue being like that regardless of the outcome. And I do the same. Folding makes this hand extremely simple to play, and that is always good in 2NL. There is plenty of easier donk bettors to make money out than tight players.
 
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mastahbates

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Is that a donk bet?

Was thinking this myself. Donking to me is open shoving or just shoving on dry flops.

Fold probably a good move but if he is playing nitty, why not see how good his hand truly is and try a 3x bet?
 
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Dymond

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Was thinking this myself. Donking to me is open shoving or just shoving on dry flops.

Fold probably a good move but if he is playing nitty, why not see how good his hand truly is and try a 3x bet?

I guess it's an out of position bet when you don't have the lead. Had to look it up lmao
 
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Tricky123bet

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Well you can always call once, so you can change my vote to call if you like. And I'm quite sure ccres don't mind too much calling once either. Personally imo calling twice is not that bad either :D Also Aces said fold or call.

It's problematic though in 2NL (and 5NL and 10NL it seems), if one decides to be aggressive he will mostly continue being like that regardless of the outcome. And I do the same. Folding makes this hand extremely simple to play, and that is always good in 2NL. There is plenty of easier donk bettors to make money out than tight players.

Agree to this. Many things you can do here. Call one and evaluate turn. Or just folding straight away to make it simple. The far biggest amounts of your profits in 2nl comes from value betting when you have it, so making it simple is something to prefer (and not many people are going to exploit you at 2nl for folding in these spots anyways).
We have a showdown value hand that would be good to get to a cheap showdown with. Raising on the flop doesn't make sense, he is not going to call with worse, and most likely isn't folding his KQ or KJ either.
Most players would choose to check-raise or check-call flop with sets, so I don't think he has 44 or 66.
I would personally call one and fold if he fires again.
 
monkey23

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i don't think that calling/floating, whatever you want to call it, is the right idea at all....no no no...you want information...and also you want oppo to fold an ace if they have one.

figaroo has imo very well identified villain's range...sure...there are lots of K's in villain's range...but a lot of hands also where TT would still be up on the flop here.

so..that leaves fold and raise as our 2 options. Folding here would imo be too tight/nitty/weak...if you fold TT here, you also fold JJ and QQ...leaving only AA KK KQ KJ and KT as your continuation range.

I would go for a raise...up to 35c/40c maybe...put the pressure back on your oppo. If you get reraised/shoved on, then you can think again. This line will also give you good info on the way opponent chooses to play against you generally.
 
Figaroo2

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I don't thinking raising here is the right idea at all no no no.
If we raise we just fold out all his weaker hands that might have bluffed and get called by everything that beats us. This allows him to play perfectly against us..
Sorry raising will only win you a small pot or bloat a pot you are already losing with very little chance of improving your hand.

Don't underestimate that he might lead here just because its a very hard flop for us to hit and continue on. Its exactly the sort of flop that all the cash games training sites are telling people to fight hard for on the flop.

Against his flat calling range we are a good favorite in this hand and should never be folding. It's important to think of ranges here not any one individual hand he might have.

Board: 6c 4h Ks
Equity Hand Range
61.84% [ TdTh ]
38.15% [ 22-99(100), AJo(100), KJo+(100), QJo(100), KJs+(100), QTs+(100), JTs(100), T9s(100), 98s(100) ]
Anything better than this he likely 3bets

The way to make money out of these hands is to call and let him bluff as he most likely will having donk led. He will probably be betting the flop trying to rep the king with all his Ax and backdoor draws.
It takes a brave aggressive player to bluff fire again on the turn on this particular board from out of position once he has been called on the flop here.
He doesn't know you don't have a king in your hand so bluffing the turn as well is pretty desperate unless he's planning on all 3 barrels to try and get a weak king to fold (good luck with that at 2nl).
 
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monkey23

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Its exactly the sort of flop that all the cash games training sites are telling people to fight hard for on the flop.
i agree completely.

if we call/float for 10cents, and the turn comes an undercard and oppo bets again, say 25 cents...that's a total of 35 cents ( flop and turn call/floats) ... and we still have no real info on whether oppo has the king for real, or Ax and is c-bet bluffing. A raise to 35 c on the flop would cost us the same altogether IF oppo checked the turn. How oppo reacted to the flop raise would give us information maybe. If they reraised, a fold would be easier. If they flat called our 35c flop raise this might well be showing weakness ( 77 88 99 A6 maybe).

if we flop raise to 35c with the TT, and oppo calls and checks the turn, we get to the river for the same price as if we call/float the flop responding to oppo's 10c and 25 c flop and turn bets, but we have more info on the situation if we raise the flop imo.

but trying to get accurate reads and ranges on players and their plays at this level is very unpredictable.
 
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T

Tricky123bet

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Its exactly the sort of flop that all the cash games training sites are telling people to fight hard for on the flop.
i agree completely.

if we call/float for 10cents, and the turn comes an undercard and oppo bets again, say 25 cents...that's a total of 35 cents ( flop and turn call/floats) ... and we still have no real info on whether oppo has the king for real, or Ax and is c-bet bluffing. A raise to 35 c on the flop would cost us the same altogether IF oppo checked the turn. How oppo reacted to the flop raise would give us information maybe. If they reraised, a fold would be easier. If they flat called our 35c flop raise this might well be showing weakness ( 77 88 99 A6 maybe).

if we flop raise to 35c with the TT, and oppo calls and checks the turn, we get to the river for the same price as if we call/float the flop responding to oppo's 10c and 25 c flop and turn bets, but we have more info on the situation if we raise the flop imo.

but trying to get accurate reads and ranges on players and their plays at this level is very unpredictable.

Betting or raising for info is not a valid reason. It is a bonus we get from either value betting or bluffing.
I can't see how villain would donk/call a raise with worse here, but if you have a dead on read on him that he will, then go for it lol. But in this case there are no reads on villain.
 
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