$2 NLHE 6-max: Villain 3bet shoves. What is your calling range?

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teambuilder

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 17/13/4

No Limit Hold'em $0.01/$0.02
pokerstars
6 players
Formatted by pokercopilot.com: Poker HUD for Mac and Windows

Stacks:
UTG - UTG ($2.31)
MP - MP ($2.11)
CO - Hero ($2.03)
BTN - BTN ($2.54)
SB - SB ($4.85)
BB - BB ($2.00)

Preflop: ($0.03, 6 players) Hero is CO with T:spade: T:heart:
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, 2 folds, BB raises to $1.94, 1 fold, Uncalled bet of $1.88 returned to BB

Total Pot: $0.13

BB wins $0.13

What is your calling range here? Villain only 3bets 4% over 75 hands.
 
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braveslice

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Mine would be KK+, AK. Your image and history is a key here, if he thinks you are loose he can be relatively wild here also if he is tilted. I don't know correct answer.
 
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Tricky123bet

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Is this 6max zoom or regular cash tables? His 3bet% suggests that he is not too wild with his 3bets, but then again this is not a normal 3bet. I would exclude AA and KK almost always here since he wants to get value with those hands, so if he shoves with AA or KK into a Button open, then take a note and move on (if you decided to call).
I would give him AK, AQ and 88-QQ, maybe even a few lower pocket pair combos. So you might dominate his lower pocket pairs sometimes with TT, sometimes flipping, and sometimes behind by a lot.

So it's a close call with TT here imo. I think I would fold TT and call JJ+ and maybe AK (because with AK there is a very good chance we are flipping, which is going to be around 0 EV for us, so all it does is increase variance if you call with AK).
 
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braveslice

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Also AK dominates his Ax range.
 
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Tricky123bet

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Also AK dominates his Ax range.

Yeah, calling with AK comes down to how many Ax hands we expect him to have. AK against a range of 88-QQ, AK has 45% equity, which isn't enough. Adding AQs brings it up to roughly 47%. I would start to consider calling when we can add AQo to that range, then it's almost 52%. If we can be relatively sure that all AQ and AK combos are in there, along with some AJ or AT (or even KQs) then it's a snap call.

I have seen players do this with AQ, but it's almost always the suited variant. Otherwise I imagine he doesn't have too many Ax combos apart from AK, which might be too nitty to think, but again, it's when all AQ combos and some random AJ or AT is added to that range, that we can start to make money off these 3bet shoves (and not just being close to breakeven on the call).
 
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braveslice

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Edit was wrong...

If you run a filter 3bet shove 2 full stacks in 2NL 6max zoom: 4 AA, 1KK, 3 QQ, 2 JJ, 1 TT, 4 AK, 1 AQ, 1 AJ, 1 AT, 1 A9, 1 A8, 1 A5
 
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Tricky123bet

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Edit was wrong...

If you run a filter 3bet shove 2 full stacks in 2NL 6max zoom: 4 AA, 1KK, 3 QQ, 2 JJ, 1 TT, 4 AK, 1 AQ, 1 AJ, 1 AT, 1 A9, 1 A8, 1 A5

Wow I didn't expect that many AA and KK, and also no 99-66, I definitely thought those were hands that some recs might decide to shove because they don't know what else to do. Against that weighted range AKo has less than 45% equity, so still not a good call. Thanks for sharing those numbers :)

P.S. Are you using HEM or PT4? If you use PT4, could you tell me exactly how you did to filter out the 3bet shoves from opponents? Cause I could only find the hands where I 3bet shoved myself (which was 2 times lol) :)
 
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braveslice

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Sure,
1. -> My Reports -> New Report -> Hand Report
2. Filters (under Report Stats) -> Add New Expression Filters -> Remove tick ‘Filter on Active Player’
3. After that you can use filters and they are targeted to every player

Usability of PT is so bad =) I wonder if hem is more fun.
 
Aces2w1n

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I usually call these at 2NL with AJ+ 22+ usually its a junky shove.
 
Keith_MM

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So much level 1 thinking going on in the above posts.

the main information that we have is that this guy is a 17/13/4 so he's a TAG with pretty tight ranges and really tight 3Bet ranges. Crucial information that we don't have is villains perception of how hero reacts to 3bets.
Has he seen hero preflop calling shoves light in which case he could well be shoving his 3bet range for value. With a tight 3bet range he's also really unlikely to be 3betting light anyway and with his 4% range having TT crushedits an easy fold .

its pointless filtering the population to see what the population 3bet shoves with as this guy isn't a fish where the junkier shoves are coming from, you need to filter what TAGs are 3bet shoving with.
 
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braveslice

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its pointless filtering the population to see what the population 3bet shoves with as this guy isn't a fish where the junkier shoves are coming from, you need to filter what TAGs are 3bet shoving with.

If our mighty all-knowing warrior would learn to read you would realize it is filtered mostly for that kind of situations and also discussed in this topic.

Learning starts by reading what other say, contributing to discussion after obviously being clueless what is said already just makes discussing and learning impossible. And gives quite bad image about yourself.

Also your logic is backward repeating, the ranges given in the topic are very tight. You are saying they should be tight and we are wrong. That would mean you are wrong too.
 
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Keith_MM

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Edit was wrong...

If you run a filter 3bet shove 2 full stacks in 2NL 6max zoom: 4 AA, 1KK, 3 QQ, 2 JJ, 1 TT, 4 AK, 1 AQ, 1 AJ, 1 AT, 1 A9, 1 A8, 1 A5

That is a filter for the population not for a TAG

Sure,
1. -> My Reports -> New Report -> Hand Report
2. Filters (under Report Stats) -> Add New Expression Filters -> Remove tick ‘Filter on Active Player’
3. After that you can use filters and they are targeted to every player

Usability of PT is so bad =) I wonder if hem is more fun.
You are even saying that its targetting every player

If our mighty all-knowing warrior would learn to read you would realize it is filtered mostly for that kind of situations and also discussed in this topic.
so I've shown that i can read, maybe you should read what you have written , rather than what you think you wrote before making a childish post.
Learning starts by reading what other say, contributing to discussion after obviously being clueless what is said already just makes discussing and learning impossible. And gives quite bad image about yourself.
I addressed the point where the filter you were running is inappropriate for determining the types of hands this type of player will be 3bet shoving.If you wantto learn you will consider the point that i made rather than throwing a tantrum .The only person looking bad for misunderstanding that point is you.
Also your logic is backward repeating, the ranges given in the topic are very tight. You are saying they should be tight and we are wrong. That would mean you are wrong too.

Again think about what i said. He is a TAG 3betting 4% or roughly 99+AQs+. Your filter has brought up AJ,AT,A9,A8 and A5 which aren't even in his 3bet range . That should have been a clue to you that the filter you ran doesn't apply to this villain.
Crucial information that we don't have is villains perception of how hero reacts to 3bets.
Has he seen hero preflop calling shoves light in which case he could well be shoving his 3bet range for value.

and we have a reply in this thread
I usually call these at 2NL with AJ+ 22+ usually its a junky shove.

in which case
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 60.82% 58.78% 2.04% { 99+, AQs+, AKo }
MP3 39.18% 37.14% 2.04% { 22+, AJs+, AJo+ }

if villain had been playing this against Aces2win , he could 3bet shove this for value with his 3bet range.

with respect to the level 1 thinking , most of the posts in this thread are concerned with what villains 3bet shove, my point is that you should also be moving onto the next level of thinking and considering how villains perception of hero's reaction to 3bet shoves will affect the range that he does this with.
 
XXPXXP

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looks like no one gives a reasoning.
so I give one of the correct answer. not sure the best here.

Hero here need to call QQ+ only
for this 100BB something like shoving.
you will put him like against AA KK, or 5% range or 8% range
if you assign this to be something like on distribution
you will get 25% AA, 75% 5% , 25% 8% range, so basically you are against a 4% to 5% shoving top range.

hero need to tighten his raise range to about 17%
so QQ+ here against his potential 4% shoving range is about 66.5% VS 33.5% wining chance

so here hero raise call 100bb all in happens about 1 out of 10 times or 1 out of 9 times.

ev here, if all in win about 33bb

total ev =( -3*10+33*1)/11 to (-3*9+33*1)/10 =0.27BB to 0.6BB per hand
convert to BB/100 is about 27BB to 60BB/100hands
humm not bad here.<- this guy worth a note on him for the sake of him to be a potential fish to donate you 27BB+/100 hands:D:D

PS: this is the very basic idea of maths, regardless of the thinking level.:D:D:D
 
aminv

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AK , KK, AA
But it all depends on your info on opp. If its very first hands, I would muck the hand. not worth it.
 
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braveslice

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That is a filter for the population not for a TAG
You are even saying that its targetting every player

Sorry it just pisses me when player who confuses level 2 thinking with level 1 thinking comes explaining how things truly are.

I'm saying it's targeted every player when they have full stacks (both have). Most fish given level have less than full stack. So it's filtered good enough against fishes. If we remove full stack requirements we get the range about @Aces gave to call.

Did you your read what is correct calling range against that so called loose range? That is KK+, not even AK. That should be tight enough for you.

And tags do stupid things too, just not so often, and they feel bad afterwards if they end up loosing and smile stupidly if they end up winning. At 2NL they do them quite regularly too, they would not play that low if they would not.
 
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Keith_MM

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so you are saying that fish never double up to get a full stack or even that fish never buy in for a full stack. That is where the anomalous results are getting into the hands you posted .

why not just add in an expression filter for #PFR#> 12 AND #PFR# <20 AND #VPIP# >12 AND #PFR#<20 to filter for what TAGs are are 3bet shoving with?
 
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braveslice

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It's good enough for me, not calling with AK was the new info for me. Feel free to study the range more closely yourself, maybe you get different answer. Until you do, the calling range is tigh. Tight like you wanted, not tight like we said but tight as you said.

I play zoom, I don't have enough hands per player to do filter like that. From those few I have enough hands, don't really 3bet shove I would imagine.
 
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Keith_MM

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I think that against a TAG at 2nl even KK is to loose a call as I think his 3bet shoving range is going to be heavily weighted towards AA which means that with KK+ we'll be calling with 1 combo of AA and 12 combos of KK meaning against his AA shoves we are massively more likely to be getting it in bad versus his shoves and when we have AA we have blockers to his AA, AK ( reducing some of his straight outs) making it far more likely that we are getting the money in good and effectively selecting for when he 3bet shoves his AK, KK,QQ and i don't think that TAGs shove QQ often enough for it to be a mistake to fold KK .
 
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braveslice

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I think that against a TAG at 2nl even KK is to loose a call ....

I agree that your logic is sound. Then again no TAG 3bet shoves, they just don't do that. So by shoving they already broke the essence of being tag. A glitch in the brains or something like that must be added.

The 2 hands I 3bet shoved in 2NL zoom 6max effective 100bb+ includes :44, AQs

Out of 90k hands, VPIP 20, PFR 15, 3bet 4.74, AF 2.34

Agains my 3bet tag shoving range correct call range is: 55+, AKs with 55% equity =D Not that one should read too much about it, I did my shoving in regular tables before zoom.
 
Keith_MM

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WHAT? Tags do 3 bet shove at 2nl because people are bad enough to call a shove and its an easy way of solidifying the preflop equity. As for 3bet shoving meaning that they are not Tight (predominantly shoving AA , how much tighter can you get) and Aggressive ( shoving 100bbs) they I don't know what is. It doesn't work higher up because people will fold to the shove and loses value.
 
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:joyman:yes we are NL2 players first, students second and tags third

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 130 BB (VPIP: 20.75, PFR: 13.21, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 54)
SB: 71 BB (VPIP: 23.53, PFR: 5.88, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 17)
BB: 100.5 BB (VPIP: 22.73, PFR: 15.91, 3Bet Preflop: 17.39, Hands: 47)
UTG: 493.5 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
MP: 45.5 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
Hero (CO): 113 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 4:diamond: 4:heart:

UTG calls 1 BB, MP calls 1 BB, Hero calls 1 BB, BTN calls 1 BB, fold, BB raises to 7 BB, fold, MP calls 6 BB, Hero raises to 113 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, MP calls 38.5 BB and is all-in

Flop: (100.5 BB, 2 players) 9:diamond: 2:heart: 8:spade:

Turn: (100.5 BB, 2 players) J:heart:

River: (100.5 BB, 2 players) T:club:

MP shows 2:spade: A:spade: (One Pair, Twos)
(Pre 34%, Flop 26%, Turn 11%)
Hero shows 4:diamond: 4:heart: (One Pair, Fours)
(Pre 66%, Flop 74%, Turn 89%)
Hero wins 97 BB
 
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Tricky123bet

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WHAT? Tags do 3 bet shove at 2nl because people are bad enough to call a shove and its an easy way of solidifying the preflop equity. As for 3bet shoving meaning that they are not Tight (predominantly shoving AA , how much tighter can you get) and Aggressive ( shoving 100bbs) they I don't know what is. It doesn't work higher up because people will fold to the shove and loses value.

In a 115k hand sample (55k at 2nl, 60k at 5nl), I have never seen a TAG 3bet shove. Yes, doing so against fish as you said might get called by worse, but against an unknown (from villain's perspective) in a zoom format, it is just missing out on value by 3bet shoving aces.
I agree that our calling range should be very narrow, but not just AA. QQ+ at a minimum.
Then again, TAGs 3bet shoving is going to be very rare, so whichever way we go is not going to do too much in the long run. But if we happen to call and be up against AA, it's not the end of the world. We'll still have 18% of that pot back in EV, and can take a note on him, in case of the rare occasion that we will face a 3bet shove from the same opponent in the future.
 
Keith_MM

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In a 115k hand sample (55k at 2nl, 60k at 5nl), I have never seen a TAG 3bet shove. Yes, doing so against fish as you said might get called by worse, but against an unknown (from villain's perspective) in a zoom format, it is just missing out on value by 3bet shoving aces.
I agree that our calling range should be very narrow, but not just AA. QQ+ at a minimum.
Then again, TAGs 3bet shoving is going to be very rare, so whichever way we go is not going to do too much in the long run. But if we happen to call and be up against AA, it's not the end of the world. We'll still have 18% of that pot back in EV, and can take a note on him, in case of the rare occasion that we will face a 3bet shove from the same opponent in the future.
some crucial things should be considered ,

Original post gives no indication that the hand was played at zoom and not been back to dispute the discussion. On regular tables villain is likely to have a lot more hands on hero and therefore a lot more likely to exploit any leaks in op's 3bet shove calling range.

villain is a TAG and therefore likely to be taking notes live /have a hud that automates notes or does post session reviews. Either of these methods may have highlighted that the OP was calling 3bet shoves wide and therefore induce him into 3bet shoving Aces for value thinking it likely that he would get called.

stacking off 100bbs with 18% equity is a very expensive way to gain a note that you will be quite unlikely to use again


If villain has profiled his opponents/got a note that hero stacks off pre with QQ+ then shoving his Aces is a great way of maximising his value with AA. Why only do it with his aces :-
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 49.99% 46.10% 3.89% { KK }
MP3 50.01% 46.12% 3.89% { QQ+ }
As soon as he drops down to KK , he is on wrong side of a flip with the QQ+ range that he assumes will call the 3bet shove.
 
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