$2 NLHE 6-max: tptk turn decision

PaxMundi

PaxMundi

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This might be more clear cut than i think but for me it falls right in the area where it feels uncomfortable to either call or fold.If your calling whats the plan on blank rivers ? it's the sizing of villains turn bet that im interested in is it a draw trying to move me off my hand or is it a made hand changing max value.Defending the turn on spades and possibly an Ace and Ten makes sense and possibly fold blank turns unimporved ? or do you call this turn and fold if so what's the river plan ?

Cheers.

Hero (BTN): $4.09 (204.5 bb)
SB: $1.96 (98 bb)
BB: $2.00 (100 bb)
UTG: $2.77 (138.5 bb)
MP: $2.00 (100 bb)
CO: $2.00 (100 bb)

SB posts $0.01, BB posts $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has T A
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.05, fold, BB calls $0.03

Flop: ($0.11, 2 players) 5 T 7
BB checks, Hero bets $0.06, BB raises to $0.18, Hero calls $0.12

Turn: ($0.47, 2 players) 4
BB bets $0.45, Hero ?
 
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gustav197poker

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Without information your hand is just a bluff catcher, but at this level regular players aggressively play their best hands. And in this case it is possible to meet some set or doubles.
So you could make a call if you think you are ahead of some flush draw hand or the same middle kicker couple as J-T for example. Otherwise it is a fold.
Regards.
 
PaxMundi

PaxMundi

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Without information your hand is just a bluff catcher, but at this level regular players aggressively play their best hands. And in this case it is possible to meet some set or doubles.
So you could make a call if you think you are ahead of some flush draw hand or the same middle kicker couple as J-T for example. Otherwise it is a fold.
Regards.

What would you do in a vacuum ?
 
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gustav197poker

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Well, a ghost ladder line also arrived. Less likely but it has arrived. In this case I would make a call. Just because I have an advantage in position and stack.
 
PaxMundi

PaxMundi

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Well, a ghost ladder line also arrived. Less likely but it has arrived. In this case I would make a call. Just because I have an advantage in position and stack.

The effective stack size is 100bb it's the most either can win or lose so having a bigger stack doesn't mean anyting but yes position is a very good reason for calling the turn.
 
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gustav197poker

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I mean that I can escape from the river if there is a street that completes the color for example. I don't think calling at this level is the best option. I think that most of the time I would be folding in this place.
 
LevySystem

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This looks very strong. Unless we know hes a aggresive spewy fish we cant call here because we will have to call river if it blanks, and by that point we are playing for stacks . So without reads id fold exploitatively knowing that i dont want to pay a river jam.

His value range on the turn is sets and 86 (most likely suited). And the sizing screams "Im going to deny you the odds" wich most fish dont reallize is nonsense. I think draws would C-bet 50%ish so given that sizing and knowing i dont want to pay river i fold.
 
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Vlad Savchenko

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Without additional information, we have a clear bluff-catcher (this would qualify as nuts versus a maniac though).

General read on unknown NL2 players is that they are mainly loose and passive, so I'd limit his realistic range to super-strong draws and two pair+ hands.

So in vacuum at NL2 this is a fold, as people are just too likely to play their "usual" draws passively (OESD and FD), raising only for value and with combo draws.

Worth noting, though, that if we have no reads whatsoever (meaning that we're just trying to play as best as we can, expecting reasonable frequencies from the villain by default), then this is a call.

There are too many draws on this board, and we block none of them, so I'd be looking to call down on brick rivers or if we improve.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Without additional information, we have a clear bluff-catcher (this would qualify as nuts versus a maniac though).

General read on unknown NL2 players is that they are mainly loose and passive, so I'd limit his realistic range to super-strong draws and two pair+ hands.

So in vacuum at NL2 this is a fold, as people are just too likely to play their "usual" draws passively (OESD and FD), raising only for value and with combo draws.

Worth noting, though, that if we have no reads whatsoever (meaning that we're just trying to play as best as we can, expecting reasonable frequencies from the villain by default), then this is a call.

There are too many draws on this board, and we block none of them, so I'd be looking to call down on brick rivers or if we improve.
Interesting take. So vs random 2NL unknown you like a fold but vs "no reads whatsoever" which I take to mean a more solid / balanced opponent with reasonable frequencies it's a call? I don't know 2NL well so this may be spot on and I was really leaning towards a call here and a call on blank rivers but that could be for this precise reason. Because I see people bombing flush and straight draws often in live poker to try to increase fold equity even while repping very thin.
 
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Vlad Savchenko

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Interesting take. So vs random 2NL unknown you like a fold but vs "no reads whatsoever" which I take to mean a more solid / balanced opponent with reasonable frequencies it's a call? I don't know 2NL well so this may be spot on and I was really leaning towards a call here and a call on blank rivers but that could be for this precise reason. Because I see people bombing flush and straight draws often in live poker to try to increase fold equity even while repping very thin.
Yeah, by that I meant "assuming we face an unknown player who's supposed to play somewhat solid", or "theoretically correct" play. I didn't buy any solver software, so I can't really prove it, but I'm pretty sure AsTs is a profitable call against a balanced opponent on the turn.

I'd say this approach should be useful while moving up in stakes, when you don't know your opponents yet, and expect them to be better than your previous opposition.

Otherwise we pretty much always have at least some sort of a read on our opponents (like general reads on a certain stake).

And my experience with these huge bets from passive players is exactly like I said - mainly 2pair+ or a combo draw.

Doesn't mean he couldn't be bluffing, I'm just sharing my opinion which can be completely wrong.
 
LevySystem

LevySystem

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Yeah, by that I meant "assuming we face an unknown player who's supposed to play somewhat solid", or "theoretically correct" play. I didn't buy any solver software, so I can't really prove it, but I'm pretty sure AsTs is a profitable call against a balanced opponent on the turn.

I'd say this approach should be useful while moving up in stakes, when you don't know your opponents yet, and expect them to be better than your previous opposition.

Otherwise we pretty much always have at least some sort of a read on our opponents (like general reads on a certain stake).

And my experience with these huge bets from passive players is exactly like I said - mainly 2pair+ or a combo draw.

Doesn't mean he couldn't be bluffing, I'm just sharing my opinion which can be completely wrong.



Pokersnowie says the Turncall is slightly -ev (-0.15), thats because of the sizings. Snowie would never size like that because it would become unbalanced. Then again as you allready stated i doubt that the avarage nl2 player is as a balanced as snowie is, so i lean towards fold.
 
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Vlad Savchenko

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Pokersnowie says the Turncall is slightly -ev (-0.15), thats because of the sizings. Snowie would never size like that because it would become unbalanced. Then again as you allready stated i doubt that the avarage nl2 player is as a balanced as snowie is, so i lean towards fold.
Oh I see, that's interesting. Thank you.
 
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fundiver199

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This is indeed a very close spot, especially because of his turn sizing. When he go this big, we are likely to also be facing a very large river bet perhaps even a jam. And if we are folding to that, unless we improve, why not just fold now. There are also a ton of cards on the river, that are going to suck for us.

As for reads, I think, his sizing indicate a value hand panicking a bit about all the draws, which of course we could also have. The one thing, that might justify a call here, is, if he is bad enough to play a worse top pair like this and think, he is "protecting his hand". But other than that I will assume, we are mostly looking at sets, two pair or 86, that turned a straight.
 
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GriffNdoor

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This looks very strong. Unless we know hes a aggresive spewy fish we cant call here because we will have to call river if it blanks, and by that point we are playing for stacks . So without reads id fold exploitatively knowing that i dont want to pay a river jam.


His value range on the turn is sets and 86 (most likely suited). And the sizing screams "Im going to deny you the odds" wich most fish dont reallize is nonsense. I think draws would C-bet 50%ish so given that sizing and knowing i dont want to pay river i fold.


This is my mindset in situations like the OP is describing
 
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