€2 NLHE 6-max: tptk oop

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te7ris

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iPoker - €0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

CO: 168.5 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 19.05, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 43)
BTN: 65.5 BB (VPIP: 31.94, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 6.45, Hands: 76)
SB: 224 BB (VPIP: 23.26, PFR: 18.60, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 43)
Hero (BB): 104.5 BB
UTG: 81.5 BB (VPIP: 55.56, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kh Td
UTG calls 1 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero checks

Flop : (2.5 BB, 2 players) 3s Tc 2h
Hero bets 2 BB, UTG calls 2 BB

Turn : (6.5 BB, 2 players) 5d
Hero bets 4 BB, UTG calls 4 BB

River : (14.5 BB, 2 players) 4c
Hero checks, UTG bets 14.5 BB, fold

UTG wins 28.5 BB

--
I wonder if it would be smarter to check the turn here. I think the fold on the river is standard, since ppl wouldnt bluff potsize on this level (at least not from my exp)

-Maxi
 
Figaroo2

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I think you played it fine. You want to bet the flop and turn for both value and protection. The 4 on the river is a bad card and obviously it fills the straight for all his ragged aces and any odd 65 67 type hands.
Any card other than a 4 or and ace and I would bet/fold to a raise on the river with our top pair here.
I think check fold is correct on this card but some might tell you to still bet/fold here as you might still get value from 77 88 99. But as he limped I think there more chance of suited connectors or suited aces that got there here.
 
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te7ris

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would you consider raising preflop? I think It had to be _at least_ ~10cent to make him fold often enough. And I dont want to play a big pot like this with KTo..
 
Figaroo2

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would you consider raising preflop? I think It had to be _at least_ ~10cent to make him fold often enough. And I dont want to play a big pot like this with KTo..

Well certainly you can consider raising for value here preflop if you want to as KT is probably a slight equity favorite against his opening range and we grab the initiative.
We will be oop and these players very rarely fold preflop to anything and will call you down with any piece of it. I prefer to have a value hand I can bet postflop from oop rather than KT. so I just call against these whales oop as it hides our range completely. Against this type of player if we catch tpgk we can usually get 2 or sometimes 3 streets of value.
 
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te7ris

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O.K. thank you for your input! It wasn't an openraise from UTG tho, only a limp.
 
Aces2w1n

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the way you played it.. prolly wouldve bluffed river as well soon as u check he could have atc to get your fold

is this player good enough to know that? perhaps u played fine but he will bet wide here
 
Figaroo2

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The fact that he limped makes hands that connect with this board more likely. If he has the hands that we beat 77 88 99 he is more likely to have open raised with those and those hands won't pay much off if anything anyway.
I don't like this as a bluffing spot for us at all....as his likely holdings are too strong. An ace isn't folding and there are plenty of 6's in a limpers range for the nuts.
Our hand has showdown value if we bet anything more than 30% on the river we only get called by better. What hands that we don't beat fold to any river bet here? maybe some raggy 2 pairs like 54 but there shouldn't be much of that here and fish don't fold sets. Sorry bluffing is spew. Recognising when you are beat and knowing when to bet and when to fold on the river is a key skill as mistakes are very costly on the river.
 
Keith_MM

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YGlpXCu.jpg

i think this is a clear raise pre . he raises 22% pre and 55 vpip so his limping range pre is gonna look something like the pic above. top 55% and then strip out the top22% that he raises and see whats left. a bit subjective but gives us

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 37.74% 36.33% 1.41% { 44-22, K9s-K2s, Q9s-Q2s, J9s-J3s, T5s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 65s, A5o-A2o, K9o-K4o, Q9o-Q7o, J9o-J7o, T7o+, 97o+, 87o }
MP3 62.26% 60.85% 1.41% { KhTd }

which is almost 2:1 favourite. Raising is also going to fold out a lot of his trash from his hand that would have hit this board.even against his continuing range we are still going to be ahead
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 44.03% 42.85% 1.18% { 44-22, K9s-K5s, Q9s, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, A5o-A2o, K9o, T9o, 98o, 87o }
MP3 55.97% 54.79% 1.18% { KhTd }

when we see the flop we are ahead of a lot of his range

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: 2h3sTc
Equity Win Tie
MP2 17.79% 17.68% 0.11% { 44-22, K9s-K5s, Q9s, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, A5o-A2o, K9o, T9o, 98o, 87o }
MP3 82.21% 82.10% 0.11% { KhTd }

most of his flop range completely misses this flop so his continuing range is probably something like
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: 2h3sTc
Equity Win Tie
MP2 32.84% 32.84% 0.00% { 44-22, 65s, A5o-A3o }
MP3 67.16% 67.16% 0.00% { KhTd }
which still leaves us way ahead.

turn card is problematic for us as none of his flop continuing range is folding this turn and hits his flop continuing range hard to give gutshots and made straights .
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: 2h3sTc5d
Equity Win Tie
MP2 52.58% 52.58% 0.00% { 44-22, 65s, A5o-A3o }
MP3 47.42% 47.42% 0.00% { KhTd }

we're now behind his range and time to pot control by checking behind

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: 2h3sTc5d4c
Equity Win Tie
MP2 100.00% 100.00% 0.00% { 44-22, 65s, A5o-A3o }
MP3 0.00% 0.00% 0.00% { KhTd }

worst river card we could get as all our equity has disappeared and we have to fold to any bet .
 
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Keith_MM his UTG limping range is quite different than average numbers, mostly there are 77+, A9s+, ATo+ for example. All player do things because there is a reason they think it is valid, let it be A is good card, or suited cards can make a flush and so on. I agree though that rising is more EV, but calling has its merits.

Against player like this ranges are imo quite useless, because we cannot ever guess what he has. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he shows AA ;)

The classic line here would be 3street of value (because of his stats), and fold to bet.
 
Keith_MM

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i disagree , he will be raising 77+ , and a lot of his Ax hands. He is unlikely to be positionally aware and his ranges will be pretty static from all positions .
only problem is the small sample size but still likely to have wide range from all positions.
 
Aces2w1n

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The fact that he limped makes hands that connect with this board more likely. If he has the hands that we beat 77 88 99 he is more likely to have open raised with those and those hands won't pay much off if anything anyway.
I don't like this as a bluffing spot for us at all....as his likely holdings are too strong. An ace isn't folding and there are plenty of 6's in a limpers range for the nuts.
Our hand has showdown value if we bet anything more than 30% on the river we only get called by better. What hands that we don't beat fold to any river bet here? maybe some raggy 2 pairs like 54 but there shouldn't be much of that here and fish don't fold sets. Sorry bluffing is spew. Recognising when you are beat and knowing when to bet and when to fold on the river is a key skill as mistakes are very costly on the river.


saying its spew is incorrect.

maybe the diff id 3bet or fold but even so.. this spot a bet looks like A 100% so that said its a great bluffing spot. and this well connected board overpairs are folding.

pretty much all folds except Ax and maybe a weak player with a set... 2pair easy fold
 
Figaroo2

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saying its spew is incorrect.
maybe the diff id 3bet or fold but even so.. this spot a bet looks like A 100% so that said its a great bluffing spot. and this well connected board overpairs are folding.
pretty much all folds except Ax and maybe a weak player with a set... 2pair easy fold

Did you even look at Keith's analysis?? You have virtually NO EQUITY on that river against the hands that call the turn.Bluffing is usually worth considering when you have no chance but he's going to have to fold more than half the time for us to break even here and he's a whale he's calling for fun that's what they do.
I don't usually make a point with you but this time I'll push back. He doesn't usually have any overpairs here his pfr is 22% so he normally open raises all his pairs other than small ones and they have hit sets. Everything he calls the turn with gets there. You are shoving when your beaten again, I'll bring this hand to John A for his considered opinion.
 
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braveslice

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i disagree , he will be raising 77+ , and a lot of his Ax hands. He is unlikely to be positionally aware and his ranges will be pretty static from all positions .
only problem is the small sample size but still likely to have wide range from all positions.
Maybe so. However, you raised an interesting question about positional awareness. A bit longer time I have been pondering that it might be that non positionally aware player is quite a myth after he has played 300 hands or so. If he is smart enough to install software and even deposited money to account he will adapt, now that adapting part might be quite different than the ‘correct’ way, players after all will solve the problem in hand the best way they come up with. Only non positionally aware players I have seen have been nits, who has same range from UTG to button, then again they are solid winners probably at micros, so they are not to blame =)

It should be quite straightforward to check the limping range for UTG and compare it to BU for VPIP 40+ players from the database?
 
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te7ris

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First of all thanks to everyone for contributing!
@Keith_MM: Your initial analysis was very eyeopening, but almost a little bit to complex for my attantionspan ;-) I also think we shouldnt take his stats too serious (you see the strangest changes here, exp when regs play against certain fish). Also I checked the bb coz limpers dont fold THAT often and I dont want to spew with KTo oop. So I am just cautious atm.

@Aces2W1n: I think the problem is on this level he wont fold and A often enough even if id push

@Figaroo2: who is John A? :>

You guys take the stats very serious in this hand but isnt it a little bit thin coz its only 20 Hands? If you had no stats at all would you play the hand different?

-Maxi
 
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braveslice

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Well stat in this particular case are very important. They are strongly hinting that UTG is total fish. Taking money from this exact player is your primary source of income in the game.
 
John A

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I'm not going to say much other than it's a bad bluffing spot. I mean the guy is calling on that board all the way, and then betting the river. He obviously has a hand (usually a flush), and it would be really really bad to try and turn your hand into a bluff there. Really bad.
 
Aces2w1n

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alright bad bluff spot and esp against this guys stats he wont be folding best of time.
 
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I think you played this fine preflop. Keeping the pot small OOP with a marginal holding preflop is completely fine, even though you're ahead of villain's range.

The flop is very dry and an obvious value bet for you.

There's no reason to slow down on the turn. You're still getting called by plenty of worse Ts, and the 5 only completes gutshot straight draws that called the flop.

The river isn't as awful as it may seem originally. What hands does he still have that made a straight that call flop and turn? Unpaired aces are unlikely. Sometime like A3/A2 is possible, but 46 and 67 are probably folding to your flop bet, and are not usually in villain's preflop limping range. Check/folding isn't terrible, but I would've tried a blocker bet. Betting like 5BB in that spot gets you a cheap showdown most of the time, and if villain raises, you can comfortably fold. On top of that, you get thin value from worse Ts which should probably call that bet, like JT and T9.

Your range interacts more strongly with this board than his. His preflop numbers indicate he's folding the lowest of his hands, but folding wasn't an option for you. One of the most common mistakes microstakes regs make against loose-passive fish is assuming they connect well with low boards. Unless they are calling greater than 60-70% preflop, you can safely eliminate the lowest holdings from their limping range.
 
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te7ris

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But do you think a raise on a mini-bet on the river is stronger then a podsize riverbet after a check?
 
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string

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But do you think a raise on a mini-bet on the river is stronger then a podsize riverbet after a check?

Yes, because the small bet makes bluffing a lot more expensive.

It's very hard to bluff raise the river against somebody that's fired 3 times.

If he raises there you can be pretty confident he has KT beat.
 
Keith_MM

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I think you played this fine preflop. Keeping the pot small OOP with a marginal holding preflop is completely fine, even though you're ahead of villain's range.

The flop is very dry and an obvious value bet for you.

There's no reason to slow down on the turn. You're still getting called by plenty of worse Ts, and the 5 only completes gutshot straight draws that called the flop.
did you read my post? When you say there are plenty of worse Ts you should really be giving him a range that he limps preflop. If there aren't any Tx in his limping range they can't unmuck themselves and appear in his hand.

The river isn't as awful as it may seem originally. What hands does he still have that made a straight that call flop and turn? Unpaired aces are unlikely. Sometime like A3/A2 is possible, but 46 and 67 are probably folding to your flop bet, and are not usually in villain's preflop limping range.
Again you are talking about his range without actually saying what you think that range is. This guy has a 55 vpip so his overall range is wider than a lot of villains and 22% pfr means that he is raising a lot of his best hands preflop giving him a lot of middling and junk hands in his limping range.
Check/folding isn't terrible, but I would've tried a blocker bet. Betting like 5BB in that spot gets you a cheap showdown most of the time, and if villain raises, you can comfortably fold. On top of that, you get thin value from worse Ts which should probably call that bet, like JT and T9.

Your range interacts more strongly with this board than his. His preflop numbers indicate he's folding the lowest of his hands, but folding wasn't an option for you. One of the most common mistakes microstakes regs make against loose-passive fish is assuming they connect well with low boards. Unless they are calling greater than 60-70% preflop, you can safely eliminate the lowest holdings from their limping range.
Again , you didn't actually say what his range is so you automatically say that he folds the lowest holdings so doesn't interact with this board. When i gave him a range there was a part of it that would continue on each street and has you crushed on the river.

One of the most common mistakes microstakes regs make against loose-passive fish is assuming that they don't have any low cards in their range and therefore assuming that they don't hit a low board.
 
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