This is a discussion on $2 NLHE 6-max: (top two on flop) How to get value when a scare card hits within the online poker forums, in the Cash Game Hand Analysis section; Yatahay Network - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4
UTG: 137.5 BB
MP: 100 BB
CO: 51.5 BB
BTN: 117 BB
Flop and turn are fine in my opinion. In a 3 bet pot V shouldn't have many flushes. We have to charge the overcards, overpairs, and flush draws. Sizing down any less may be shooting ourselves in the foot all the times V has one heart or an over pair. 3 bet pre seems very ambitious though. No stats on MP but I can't see how this could be long term profitable. We are closing the action, so if V is that wide and spewy I'd rather 3 bet A5s here and have better equity, blockers, and showdown value. If V is loose they will overcall and leave us OOP playing 6 high and running multi street bluffs or praying for 2 pair+. If V is tight we are praying they are also weak tight and overfold otherwise we are still OOP playing 6 high against a stronger range. I don't mind flatting vs a 20+ PFR V some of the time but I think this is mostly a fold pre.
What can we do with our turn bet sizing to get value here? Also, what if V raises us turn? Any way to play the turn (or flop) better?
Good morning teh_colonel_saigon how you doing? Thank you for posting your hands!
Big Blind Defense
Well, I am struggling to define an optimal strategy for blind defense at the micros. I didn't find any yet. However, the devil is hidden in the details. God as well. In a situation like that, where I have an open raise coming from EP, I really don't love calling down from the BB with a wide range. I utilize the same range that I could be making a 3bet for a call, for balance. Against CO and BTN I see no problem calling with speculative connectors.
I wonder if 65s is our bottom range for calling from the BB x MP. (?)
Consider always the Stack Sizes and the Preflop raise Size: MP opened 3.5x Preflop, which is a very large size for calling from the BB with all suited connectors:
It is a very strange spot because we are not 3betting MP with 54s or 65s, for example.
Sometimes, depending on the Villain, we are not even making a 3bet with ATs and AJs, because we could be dominated.
Given Stack Sizes, both Villain and Hero have 100 blinds of effective stack. I don't see many reasons for calling from the BB with a wide range. 65s is simply dominated by 76s, and MP generally will have a stronger range than this.
If you calculate, you probably have the proper odds for calling from the BB with a bunch of suited connectors against a 3.5x raise, but at the micros, it will not be profitable in the long run.
I believe it is better to call from the BB to a 3x or 2.5x or 2x. Unless, of course, if you have some good information about the villain that is possible to overplay it postflop. (because we are going to miss 65s more than hit so we must have another plan).
We see that it simply doesn't make any sense for the MP's range to be making a blocking C-Bet of 100% Pot, because MP will never get called by worse.
Let us assume that MP has a 20% range when it opens:
We gotta understand why players do what they do, and why it doesn't make any sense this 100% Pot bet in the Flop:
If MP is betting, it has all the AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88, 77, 66, 55 and 22, that could be the Top of its range, it would simply make BB fold all of its bluffs, and even marginal flush draws.
I don't think it is healthy to our winrate to call a 100% Pot bet in the flop chasing flushes.
So, If Villain MP had these hands it is turning pretty good value hands into bluffs.
It seems a lot that MP has a value hand and wants protection against the flush draw of hearts. But betting that much is not the solution.
On the other hand, MP could also do it with a couple of bluffs, which is not profitable at all, but it could made it with some 8h7h, with some AhXh, all of its flush combos and potentially with air.
We know that MP will have a lot of air here when it decides to make such a polarized bet against a player out of position.
If this player is a recreational one, I see no problem in doing what we do here: A nonsense Check-Raise versus a nonsense 100% C-Bet Flop.
I would say that against bad regs, average regs and good regs I am never doing it. We have a pretty okay value hand (Two Pair) and we are turning it into a huge bluff. (after this raise, V will never bluff anymore Turn/River and it will leave even AA, KK, QQ, being a regular, of course). We are making MP fold good hands such as AA and KK easily! We don't want that! We want MP to believe that we are bluffing. When we bet that large, at the micros, we have no bluffs!
Given that you raised for 30 BB, your plan is to go all-in either in the Turn or in the River, anyways, you want to go all with you Two Pair as soon as possible.
When you check-raise that much, logically the only value hands that could afford paying that size is some AA with a hearts, KK with hearts, a few QQ with a hearts, 66, 55, 22.
A recreational will pay here with all the pocket pairs here, specially if they have a hearts: 77, 88, 99, TT and JJ.
Turn is a flush
As I said, IMO, it is much more profitable in a situation like that to call down the MP C-bet since we have a very strong value hand, which is not the nuts! We protect our bluffing range, our flush draws, our straight draws and we can evaluate some Turns and our gameplan later.
The Turn completes a Flush and Hero in the BB has no blockers and bets 1/2 pot (30 bb to a pot of 60, give or take).
This simply means that we are going to be beat several times by MP's flushes and sets, and as long as we put huge ammounts of chips in the Flop/Turn, if MP has a flush right now and shoves, we are FORCED to call knowing that we are losing.
If Villain raises the Turn there is no way to scape my friend! Because we made the pot grow fast in the flop in a heavy-drawie connected board! We would have a good hand for a showdown, but we will be losing almost always, when MP raises/shoves turn.
When you bet Turn, a good regular will never pay you with nothing that isn't a Flush, and in the minority of cases, it will pay us with a Straight that it is in its range (98 for instance), and Sets such as 77 and 22, because we block some of its 66 and 55.
On the other hand, if Villain have AA with a hearts it will be an easy fold, KK, QQ, and all of its bluffs. By betting that much we never gave a chance for MP try to bluff again and try to steal the pot!
We believe MP would continue bluffing if you didn't raise it, and it will be hard to fold some AA, KK, QQ in a low board river, if you give a fair price.
With all due respect, sorry for all of this candor: The preflop call was weak, because we are overdefending the BB and we will miss these combos of 65s, 76s, 87s a lot, the Check-Raise Flop turns a value hand into a bluff, and in the Turn we bet two pair in a board that already connected a Flush and a Straight and Villain still have some 77, 22, 76 or some Ace of Hearts that could be sticky.
As played, Villain MP did not pay you with its AA, KK, missing draws. So, there was no reason for making a bet. We make a bet when we know that we are going to be paid by worse hands. In this case, there were none. MP would never fold a better hand here, such as a better two pair 76, straights and flushes so, game over.
PS: If we in the BB's shoes Check the turn behind, MP will think that we were bluffing something, and it will never assign us a flush, a straight, a set or two pair. Based on it, MP could try to bluff a lot of Pocket Pairs in the River and give us VALUE.
Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
January 2nd, 2020, 12:44 PM
Join Date: Dec 2019
Some thoughts come to mind. First of all I would lean towards folding preflop. While your hand looks nice, think about when it plays well:
1) when being the aggressor and you can semibluff
2) when in position
3) partially multi-way dependent of PF action
4) when villain bluffs too much or pays off easily
None of these apply - 4 we don’t know. Therefore I would lean towards folding.
As played, you likely need to bet/fold turn. If you check, he likely bets all better hand and check behinds worse. Also you don’t want to see 4th heart landing on river when turn goes check check.
Not much we can do differently.
Aballinamion liked this post
January 2nd, 2020, 7:09 PM
Join Date: Jul 2016
The turn is a definite action killer, unless villain now has a hand that beats yours (flushes, straights, sets). Bet sizing on turn is fine, though I do think your line should be bet/fold if raised.
Aballinamion liked this post
January 3rd, 2020, 3:55 AM
Join Date: Apr 2012
Online Poker at: ACR
Game: NLHE PLO LHE
re: Poker & $2 NLHE 6-max: (top two on flop) How to get value when a scare card hits
I like the hand as played. If you check you may get a bluff, but most people will take the free card and try to out draw you. By betting you fold out hands that may catch up, get value from non believer, and you may even accidentally bluff out a better hand if opponent is weak.
Aballinamion liked this post
January 4th, 2020, 5:50 PM
Join Date: Dec 2018
Poker at: pokerstars
I would have X/call Turn,because you raise flop for value and protection,that 7h turn is the worse card ever for your hand,wath you would had do iff vilain push that turn?