$2 NLHE 6-max: QJ off. Another marginal spot. and hand.

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 17/17/10

Villain running 17/17/10
9% 3bet over 27 hands.

What do we do in this spot?

pokerstars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Button ($1.77)
SB ($2.20)
Hero (BB) ($2.86)
UTG ($3.03)
MP ($2.02)
CO ($1.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J , Q
1 fold, MP raises to $0.08, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.17) 9 , 8 , J (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.30, MP raises to $1.94 (All-In), Hero ??????? I know fklatting is best here but i wanted to inflate the pot cause i liked my draw, but didnt want to be faced with a shove here. . Im good against overpairs here right? i mean i do have outs. but is it a bad call?

I think calling would be bad, his shoving range crushes you

micromachine said:

I think calling would be bad, his shoving range crushes you

Click to expand...

Am i crushed by an over pair? i mean i have any Q any T any J and any back door spade??? (a little farfetched but maybe a call?) Also he could be on a FD himself and i might be ahead here sometimes right?

Fold pre, call flop, fold to shove.

Menschlich said:

Fold pre, call flop, fold to shove.

Click to expand...

Admittedly, this is the best "politically correct" advice. But i like complicating hands.(thats why i lose a bunch)

vinylspiros said:

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 17/17/10

Villain running 17/17/10
9% 3bet over 27 hands.

What do we do in this spot?

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Button ($1.77)
SB ($2.20)
Hero (BB) ($2.86)
UTG ($3.03)
MP ($2.02)
CO ($1.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J

, Q

1 fold, MP raises to $0.08, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.17) 9

, 8

, J

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.30, MP raises to $1.94 (All-In), Hero ??????? I know fklatting is best here but i wanted to inflate the pot cause i liked my draw, but didnt want to be faced with a shove here. . Im good against overpairs here right? i mean i do have outs. but is it a bad call?

Click to expand...

IMO he can have a ton of hands here . AK , AQ clubs , sets , overpairs , 2 pairs , even straights. And you only have TP with medium kicker. As played i would fold .

Fold pre. You are Out off position and villain bets 4BB it says tha he has strong hand somthing like 22+ AQ+...

Never a good idea flat calling OOP... 3bet pre if you want to play these hands and bet full pot flop.

Put your villain in a bad spot not yourself .... Your setting yourself up for disaster the whole flatting pre means your going in with a marginal hand and if he senses you'll fold he can pretty much exploit you if he has a pair of balls.

And your 3betting for info here... If he 4bets it's a simple fold with someone 17/17... Though the flop is tempting but most times your pulling up dominated.

Aces2w1n said:

Never a good idea flat calling OOP... 3bet pre if you want to play these hands and bet full pot flop.

Put your villain in a bad spot not yourself .... Your setting yourself up for disaster the whole flatting pre means your going in with a marginal hand and if he senses you'll fold he can pretty much exploit you if he has a pair of balls.

And your 3betting for info here... If he 4bets it's a simple fold with someone 17/17... Though the flop is tempting but most times your pulling up dominated.

Click to expand...

Yea, i hear you bro. Your right. Totally right.

Gonna try to stop flatting those garbage hands from the bb. Its a huge leak. I noticed i call wayyy too many hands from the bb to defend.( instead of 3betting them)

Perhaps you play too much or your bored at the game and not playing your A game if you like putting yourself in these spots?

I remember a while back you were upset that you weren't going up and not making a profit while putting a lot of volumne in... Well this is one of your leaks and if you don't change it you'll lose.... I use to have this leak as well and I had to fix it... Another leak I also had was playing too much and too worried about quantity and not quality... Sometimes ease it and play smarter and you'll end up ontop.

Aces2w1n said:

Perhaps you play too much or your bored at the game and not playing your A game if you like putting yourself in these spots?

I remember a while back you were upset that you weren't going up and not making a profit while putting a lot of volumne in... Well this is one of your leaks and if you don't change it you'll lose.... I use to have this leak as well and I had to fix it... Another leak I also had was playing too much and too worried about quantity and not quality... Sometimes ease it and play smarter and you'll end up ontop.

Click to expand...

thnk you aces. good tips. Much appreciated. Will defoo be keeping this in mind.

all in is not a good position here. at this point AK or AJ beats you. Yes you have decent outs such as a Q or far fetching a runner runner flush. You gotta play the player in every hand here if he normally pushes with strong hands and figure he has KJ or AJ or even a two pair. Also consider that he weighed out his outs as well maybe he is chasing a flush and wants to hit that 3rd club. I see more and more people chasing and catching flushes its crazy

Against the top 17% percent of hands you have about 36% equity preflop so a fold is favored or three bet depending on how often he folds to 3 bets. You need him to be folding a fair amount. (this is one area I need to improve my math, can anyone gives us the formula for +ev here?)
After his shove you can narrow his range substantially and as micro said his shoving range crushes you, even allowing for giving him a few st draw/flush combos you are at best still 36% ,,,equity says a clear fold.

Yeah, fold pre. Problem solved.

88+ Q10 AJ KJ 98 J9 J8. thing is you allowed all the hands you want him to have like J10/10x club draws to put it in v you with an uncapped range. see absolutely no reason to raise flop, firstly we have top pair AND a gutter AND a back door flush draw/blocker, why would we want to raise here. we have equity and showdown value.

Why do you want to inflate the pot with a 1 pair hand? As played, its a definite fold. No question about it. And no, you are far from good vs overpairs here.

Blobweird123 said:

Why do you want to inflate the pot with a 1 pair hand? As played, its a definite fold. No question about it. And no, you are far from good vs overpairs here.

Click to expand...

cause apparently i watch WAYYYYY too much TV.

solid tips. thnks BLOB.

duggs said:

88+ Q10 AJ KJ 98 J9 J8. thing is you allowed all the hands you want him to have like J10/10x club draws to put it in v you with an uncapped range. see absolutely no reason to raise flop, firstly we have top pair AND a gutter AND a back door flush draw/blocker, why would we want to raise here. we have equity and showdown value.

Click to expand...

duggs, your advice is always solid. and well detailed. your right. thnks again man. these tips are priceless. gonna be altering my approach in a few spots like this in the future.

I think most important think you can take and learn from this hand is pre-flop ranges versus your opponents. You don't have many hands yet, but 17/17 is likely a tight opponent. Let's assume this was actually his normalized stats. That would mean he's opening probably 15-16% or even less from MP. So best case is that you might have ~ 35% equity versus his range, and you're OOP.

John A said:

I think most important think you can take and learn from this hand is pre-flop ranges versus your opponents. You don't have many hands yet, but 17/17 is likely a tight opponent. Let's assume this was actually his normalized stats. That would mean he's opening probably 15-16% or even less from MP. So best case is that you might have ~ 35% equity versus his range, and you're OOP.

Click to expand...

Wow, i see what you mean. I'ts just that i dont have the math handy during the hand so with one quick glimpse during 4 tabling zoom, it felt as though i had outs and wannted to build the pot, but in hindsight it looks pretty horribad. thnks man.

fold pre vinyl...not seeing much point in calling against this 6max nit unless it was soooted imo...tough spot to be in even if you hit tpgk.

If this kind of spot isn't automatic, then you probably should consider not playing zoom, where you will be playing exponentially more hands per hour against a field that tends to be even nittier than most microstakes games.

I hate playing marginal hands out of position, even vs a players whis range I might be doing alright vs. Which is why facing these spots in the BB I'm much more likely to fold or 3 bet, vs a 4 BB open I'd be favoring a fold and on to the next table.

So yeah basically as others have said, fold preflop call flop fold vs shove

vinylspiros said:

Wow, i see what you mean. I'ts just that i dont have the math handy during the hand so with one quick glimpse during 4 tabling zoom, it felt as though i had outs and wannted to build the pot, but in hindsight it looks pretty horribad. thnks man.

Click to expand...

Think a little though. It is common sense. What can you hit when calling with QJo OP. One pair or a straight draw most likely if you hit something. Everything else is hard to hit and it is very easy to spot by the opponent. With one dominated pair or a straight draw you are in big trouble postflop playing OP.
Another thing. There is a huuuuuuge difference between suited and not suited connectors. Look at the difference between OdJc and QcJc . Your equity is doubled postflop. A nonsuited connector has half of the pottential of a suited one .

swingro said:

Think a little though. It is common sense. What can you hit when calling with QJo OP. One pair or a straight draw most likely if you hit something. Everything else is hard to hit and it is very easy to spot by the opponent. With one dominated pair or a straight draw you are in big trouble postflop playing OP.

Click to expand...

True that. passive preflop line in combination with a not too good hand leads to TROUBLE.