$2 NLHE 6-max: pocket 8s on str8 draw board,hit set on turn...

hello people!

can you please review this hand and tell me your opinions.. i dont have proper stats of this guy,and i didnt see him often @ 2nl Zoom so he is complete stranger for me.
flop was scary and turn was even worse...i was thinking on fold after his cbet but dunno if that would be good move?
Thanks in advance

poker stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (BTN): $3.78 (189 bb)
SB: $2 (100 bb)
BB: $3.03 (151.5 bb)
UTG: $4.38 (219 bb)
MP: $2.23 (111.5 bb)
CO: $3.43 (171.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 8 8
UTG folds, MP raises to $0.06, CO raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, SB folds, BB calls $0.18, MP calls $0.14

Flop: ($0.81) 9 T J (4 players)
BB checks, MP checks, CO bets $0.45, Hero calls $0.45, BB folds, MP calls $0.45

Turn: ($2.16) 8 (3 players)
MP checks, CO checks, Hero bets $1.04, MP folds, CO calls $1.04

River: ($4.24) 3 (2 players)
CO checks, Hero ?

P.S. also please tell me about action on river... what to do there?

Im not a huge fan of the call on the flop.

We have supposedly 8 outs. 4 give us the bum end of the straight and 4 to a straight that wont pay well often. Not to mention that 2 of the 8 are tainted. So effectively we have 3 good outs.

As played, I think betting the turn is okay to bloat the pot for if we boat up and to get value from FD's.

River is obv a check back.

Dont call these kinda 3bets with 8 8 , what you gonna do if SB or BB 4bets or if MP backraises? Lose 10bb? This is not profitable at all as youre almost never gonna catch your set and your 8 8 will be dominated almost always in multiway pots. You shouldve folded flop because MP range is full of KQ or AQ. You beat AA KK and AK spades hearts and diamonds on the river. You lose to AK clubs QQ 10 10 99 JJ so no bet here IMHO.

Speedexas said:

Dont call these kinda 3bets with 8 8 , what you gonna do if SB or BB 4bets or if MP backraises? Lose 10bb? This is not profitable at all as youre almost never gonna catch your set and your 8 8 will be dominated almost always in multiway pots. You shouldve folded flop because MP range is full of KQ or AQ. You beat AA KK and AK spades hearts and diamonds on the river. You lose to AK clubs QQ 10 10 99 JJ so no bet here IMHO.

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Yeah prolly would fold for any action beyond 3bet
Guess i just got lucky in this spot...

Flatting pre is fine as long as we know MP won't 4 bet. We're deepstacked so against a 3 betting range it's very profitable to set mine.

We are definitely deep enough to set mine here, the issue is whether MP is likely to 4-bet, I'm probably flatting here as I think 4-bets are rare at these stakes.

I don't think we can call the flop bet, something we must remember when we set mine is that our aim is to hit the set on the flop, any kind of mediocre draw we make should not tempt us to play it, especially when the flop is multi way, the reason why set mining is good here is that COs range should be really tight and thus likely to get stacks in with us on most flops. When this flop comes down it is super wet and hits everyone's range, I think we should fold to the raise.

I think betting the turn is the best option considering COs check, I think they would bet all their straights and check their draws. An interesting question is would you call a shove from CO? It looks like you need 35% to call and you have like a 22% chance of improving on the river, so you need them to be shoving with draws/overpairs a fair amount to call.

The river is a pretty clear check back, it's pretty thin to value bet as we would have expected villain to bet the turn with an overpair, AJ is a possibility that might have check called the turn but that's only one hand that might call you that you beat. Villain just snap folds all their air. So yeah I check.

I would defo fold if he did shoot on turn, but since he didnt i thought he have strong overpair, and he was afraid that i have str8...

magicius said:

I would defo fold if he did shoot on turn, but since he didnt i thought he have strong overpair, and he was afraid that i have str8...

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Sorry I'm a bit confused, so you think on the turn that villain checks his overpair because he is afraid you have the straight? That does make sense, and then your bet is good if you think villain will check call the turn.

The issue with the river is that villains turn check calling range is likely to have flush draws and straight draws in it as well, and the flush draw gets there on the river. If you think that villain will check call with an overpair to a river bet then you can bet for value, but I think that you might find that villain won't call your river bet with an overpair as often as you would hope, the board is very wet at this point and it would be pretty fishy for them to call you with AA.

On turn he either show me that hes affraid of being behind or he wanted to x/r,if he did x/r than would be fold from my side, as for river i agree they would call raise with kk, aa, but still its 2nl zoom...

bet fold the river here

This should typically be a fold preflop (yes even with the deeper stacks) because the action is still open and we know nothing about either opponent. If you know that the 4Bet isn't likely to happen, and that at least one of them is a huge fish that is likely to stack off with top pair, then it's ok.

BlackRain79 said:

This should typically be a fold preflop (yes even with the deeper stacks) because the action is still open and we know nothing about either opponent. If you know that the 4Bet isn't likely to happen, and that at least one of them is a huge fish that is likely to stack off with top pair, then it's ok.

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I dont play too tight/nit... 4 bet in zoom means only one thing, and it happens from time to time... i had some info on them

BlackRain79 said:

This should typically be a fold preflop (yes even with the deeper stacks) because the action is still open and we know nothing about either opponent. If you know that the 4Bet isn't likely to happen, and that at least one of them is a huge fish that is likely to stack off with top pair, then it's ok.

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Agree. No need to call 3bet OOP

tomnovember said:

Agree. No need to call 3bet OOP

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How do you mean oop?

OOP - Out of position.

Not really OOP in the sense that you have the button, but with the action having yet to be closed by the original raiser in MP, you risk getting reraised and being blown off your 88s. It would be ugly and you'd be lighting 10bb on fire.

In other words, you're counting on the MP flatting and closing the preflop action. If you're confident he's rarely going to reraise, then it's a standard call. Otherwise, you're in position and I like how you had the button, guaranteeing the option of checking behind because he's never bluffing the river in that spot.

I think the +EV move would be to fold despite flopping the bottom end of the straight draw, which would be dominated by QQ/AQ (if someone didn't have KQ already), and there are enough players to think that someone has a flush draw, dirtying more of your outs. Your draw's much stronger on a 765 board, which you could technically just open-shove the flop profitably against the overpairs, versus the J109 flop which is suicide.

Another detail is that you're OOP on the flop in that it checked through the blinds - then the CO bet, and after you call, both of you would be checkraised on this flop a fair percentage of the time.

A good thing to think about in these sort of spots is "What would need to happen in this hand for me to confidently value bet the river?" Here, you kind of need a running full house, no?

On the turn, the CO's check-call turn kinda looks like the CO possibly having AK of diamonds on the flush + broadway draw. He misses the river, I'd just check it back.

Another set of possibilities in my mind is that *he* flopped a set with JJ/10s/9s. Then his c-bet (are the rest of his non-club/non-diamond AK/AQ combos really c-betting into 4 other players on a board *that* wet and connecting with the callers?) makes sense. Horrible turn card, so he can only check-call to boat up or failing that hope for a free showdown. If you've seen him 3-bet 1010s and 99s so these fall into his range, then the other play is to shove the river to fold these hands out. If your read is that he may have one of these hands.

If he's a trapping type of player, you can infer if he had KQ/AQ. With two flush draws, would he really c/c the turn with any combos except KQ/AQ of diamonds/clubs? With QQs alone, he'd get the rest of the money in to protect his hand after you bet I'd think. I'm leaning toward the AK/KK/JJ/1010/99 side of his range rather than the QQ/KQ/AQ range. Just speculation.

Interesting hand and runout. What did he have?

Fold flop! even raise/fold is better than just call on that spot

KK he had

Fold preflop or 4bet if you have a certain read/dynamics but else just fold. You're not effectively setmining here even tho it comes quite close since you are both deep.

Even when you call and the flop brings all undercards what is the plan? calling of 3 streets? What on an overcard?

pre is fine.

flop is a fold, turn bet is questionable probably close, river is a check .

paying the flop is totally wrong because is against 3 players,

the flop brings 3 cards over hero´s pair, all 3 cards are in the range of any villain, one of them could have already a better set or a straight, or perhaps the flush draw, some of them could have queens (so an 8 just improve his hand and not hero´s)

so basically the only chance for hero is to get runner runner and both 8 (because a full could be dominated too with a higher full)

if hero won this hand was very lucky, actually betting the turn was as bad as doing in the flop,

so what to do after river, well once only one villain kept in the hand and didnt take the action and despite all mistakes done, it´s time to semibluff and push all chips in (if loses no time to blame the push, blame the bad line hero followed all the hand)