$2 NLHE 6-max: Playing TPTK on the flop w/ flush and straight draws?

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Cymro

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BTN: 49.5 BB
SB: 90 BB (VPIP: 19.94, PFR: 10.30, 3Bet Preflop: 1.90, hands: 336)
BB: 122.5 BB
Hero (UTG): 98.5 BB
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 15.00, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 20)
CO: 41 BB (VPIP: 13.33, PFR: 13.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:spade: J:club:

Hero raises to 3 BB, MP calls 3 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

Flop: (10 BB, 3 players) T:club: J:heart: 6:heart:
SB checks,

What's my move? My instinct here is to make a pot sized bet to discourage any drawers and try to take the pot down here. Not sure what to do if I get 3-Bet, as I've seen SB do this before with J-J, and could easily have J-10 even. Thoughts?
 
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S

steviewayne69

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BTN: 49.5 BB
SB: 90 BB (VPIP: 19.94, PFR: 10.30, 3Bet Preflop: 1.90, Hands: 336)
BB: 122.5 BB
Hero (UTG): 98.5 BB
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 15.00, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 20)
CO: 41 BB (VPIP: 13.33, PFR: 13.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A J

Hero raises to 3 BB, MP calls 3 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

Flop: (10 BB, 3 players) T J 6
SB checks,

What's my move? My instinct here is to make a pot sized bet to discourage any drawers and try to take the pot down here. Not sure what to do if I get 3-Bet, as I've seen SB do this before with J-J, and could easily have J-10 even. Thoughts?

In this case I noticed that all three players have relatively the same size chip stacks; I would think that a smooth call is only asking for trouble, I prefer either the pot size bet or a 2/3 pot size bet to disguise as a bluff. try the pot size bet, and if the person 3 bets, then four bet. Aggression is the key to victory, especially when you have a real hand, the simple calling indicates weakness and uncertainty. It's a relatively safe flop for top top, that is who would have top, middle, or bottom set given the action, but in the end I would trust your gut.
 
Jollocks

Jollocks

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You have pretty much 2 options here imo. Either as you say, make a pot sized bet and prevent any freecards. I'd make a pot sized bet and if he calls then I'd 3-bet him.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
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Seems like a standard c-bet to me. We're going to get raised on this flop often, and it'll depend on stats, but I probably call when the SB raises at least, since I'll be in position.

If the guy with position raises, I think I just vomit and fold unless he rarely folds to c-bets.
 
T

tomnovember

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Just c-bet here. If you get raised, maybe you shall think of folding.
 
S

Sohmurr

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Definitely agree with the c-bet. All you know is that they called you preflop. Sure you could be check-raised by the SB or raised from the guy behind you, but they could both fold too. Or maybe you get a call. No matter what, I can't see not c-betting here.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
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Definitely agree with the c-bet. All you know is that they called you preflop. Sure you could be check-raised by the SB or raised from the guy behind you, but they could both fold too. Or maybe you get a call. No matter what, I can't see not c-betting here.
There is an argument to be made for not c-betting. It's that we're going to get raised often on this board, and that our hand is a slight dog to their raising range. You could check, and then continue on blank turns.

It's just that these villains don't seem aggressive enough to check/raise tons of draws like naked gutshots. They're going to call more than they should, and raise infrequently. So I'd just c-bet. But the argument to be made has been made before here.
 
H

hffjd2000

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Definitely have to value bet and know where we stand.
 
C

Cymro

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Well, this is how the hand actually went down:

BTN: 49.5 BB
SB: 90 BB (VPIP: 19.94, PFR: 10.30, 3Bet Preflop: 1.90, Hands: 336)
BB: 122.5 BB
Hero (UTG): 98.5 BB
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 15.00, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 20)
CO: 41 BB (VPIP: 13.33, PFR: 13.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:spade: J:club:

Hero raises to 3 BB, MP calls 3 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

Flop: (10 BB, 3 players) T:club: J:heart: 6:heart:
SB checks, Hero bets 10 BB, MP calls 10 BB, SB raises to 25 BB, Hero raises to 95 BB, fold, SB calls 62 BB

Turn: (194 BB, 2 players) 4:club:

River: (194 BB, 2 players) 5:spade:

SB shows 9:heart: Q:heart: (High Card, Queen) (Pre 41%, Flop 62%, Turn 41%)
Hero shows A:spade: J:club: (One Pair, Jacks) (Pre 59%, Flop 38%, Turn 59%)
Hero wins 184.5 BB


I had a couple of notes on SB from before, where he'd played draws aggressively, and also his calling range from the blinds which was basically any picture card with a medium kicker (A-7, K-8 etc). When he re-raised, I put him on K-Q or Q-9, or a suited Ace but I was also worried about Jacks or Tens, or J-T (he would have 3-bet PF with anything higher). Turns out he had an open-ended straight draw, a flush draw and an overcard to my jack and I was actually a 60% dog on the flop. I don't think there's any way I could have put him on Q-9h.

I was basically going on a read based on what I knew of the opponent so far, but whenever I get a hand where I'm behind when I shove, I worry if it was a bad play.
 
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tomnovember

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Well, this is how the hand actually went down:

BTN: 49.5 BB
SB: 90 BB (VPIP: 19.94, PFR: 10.30, 3Bet Preflop: 1.90, Hands: 336)
BB: 122.5 BB
Hero (UTG): 98.5 BB
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 15.00, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 20)
CO: 41 BB (VPIP: 13.33, PFR: 13.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A<font color='black'>♠</font> J<font color='black'>♣</font>

Hero raises to 3 BB, MP calls 3 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

Flop: (10 BB, 3 players) T<font color='black'>♣</font> J<font color='red'>♥</font> 6<font color='red'>♥</font>
SB checks, Hero bets 10 BB, MP calls 10 BB, SB raises to 25 BB, Hero raises to 95 BB, fold, SB calls 62 BB

Turn: (194 BB, 2 players) 4<font color='black'>♣</font>

River: (194 BB, 2 players) 5<font color='black'>♠</font>

SB shows 9<font color='red'>♥</font> Q<font color='red'>♥</font> (High Card, Queen) (Pre 41%, Flop 62%, Turn 41%)
Hero shows A<font color='black'>♠</font> J<font color='black'>♣</font> (One Pair, Jacks) (Pre 59%, Flop 38%, Turn 59%)
Hero wins 184.5 BB


I had a couple of notes on SB from before, where he'd played draws aggressively, and also his calling range from the blinds which was basically any picture card with a medium kicker (A-7, K-8 etc). When he re-raised, I put him on K-Q or Q-9, or a suited Ace but I was also worried about Jacks or Tens, or J-T (he would have 3-bet PF with anything higher). Turns out he had an open-ended straight draw, a flush draw and an overcard to my jack and I was actually a 60% dog on the flop. I don't think there's any way I could have put him on Q-9h.

I was basically going on a read based on what I knew of the opponent so far, but whenever I get a hand where I'm behind when I shove, I worry if it was a bad play.

I actually do not like your flop play. Such TPTK is too weak to go allin here...
 
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