$2 NLHE 6-max: Open-ender on flop vs aggressive opponent

_dogmeat

_dogmeat

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Full Tilt - $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em (6 players)
Full Tilt Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $1.89
BB: $2.03
UTG: $2
MP Villain: $2
CO Hero: $3.79
BTN: $2.12

Pre-flop: ($0.03) Hero is CO and dealt :js4: :10s4:
UTG folds, Villain raises to $0.08, Hero calls $0.08, BB folds

Flop: ($0.19) :3d4: :qc4: :9s4: (2 players)
Villain bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.39) :3d4: :qc4: :9s4: :jh4: (2 players)
Villain bets $0.24, Hero calls $0.24

River: ($0.87) :3d4: :qc4: :9s4: :jh4: :9c4: (2 players)
Villain bets $1.58 (All-in), Hero???

Just a few hands ago I stacked the poor guy with set over set, so maybe he was steaming. Still, I don't really like this river shove. I have seen this a lot and most of the time it means a pretty strong hand.

Should I play flop or turn differently? Call river? I thought of maybe raising the flop but decided to raise the turn instead. When the jack came it both made my hand stronger absolutely and weaker relative to the board (more straight possibilities), so I decided to just call. That shove I didn't really expect, though.
 
JimmyBrizzy

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Raise the flop, fire again on most turns when checked to.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Nice hand, now fold the river.

Also, if I had a better read on this player, I'd consider a river call. When he bets the flop & turn small, and then jams the river, he's really repping only nines as far as I can tell. However, people at 2NL do funny stuff, so without any clue as to how he plays, I'm not bluff-catching this river.

Raise the flop, fire again on most turns when checked to.
Eww, no.
 
_dogmeat

_dogmeat

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Nice hand, now fold the river.

Also, if I had a better read on this player, I'd consider a river call. When he bets the flop & turn small, and then jams the river, he's really repping only nines as far as I can tell. However, people at 2NL do funny stuff, so without any clue as to how he plays, I'm not bluff-catching this river.

Eww, no.

Yeah, I was pretty sure he had at least a nine. As I said before, I thought he was steaming and trying to make up for the previous big pot that he lost, and I don't think he'd be doing this with worse than a J here. I folded and he showed pocket 3's.

IDK why he bet so small on turn and river, maybe he was trying to slowplay or something, but I guess my read was kinda correct.
 
bgomez89

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Yeah def folding river. Nh
 
ljove

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I am folding turn here in almost every situation
 
_dogmeat

_dogmeat

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I am folding turn here in almost every situation
Off-suit Jack = One of the best cards in the deck for me

Sure, if I complete my straight I wouldn't be all that happy and there are a lot more straight combos but, still, the J is a pretty decent card, IMO.
 
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ClubArrow77

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I think you played the hand pretty well but im not sure about the turn. I think that given the implied odds of hitting your straight, the call on the flop was good even though you did call more than half the pot. I am not sure about the turn since you called a good 2/3 of the pot despite only having 8 outs. The river was a definite fold.
 
seanDCFC

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I am not sure about the turn since you called a good 2/3 of the pot despite only having 8 outs.

On the turn he has a pair and an open ended straight draw against an aggressive opponent. Im not folding that turn, but I fold the river shove.
 
B

BigThingWithHolesInIt

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Likminutz
Raise the flop, fire again on most turns when checked to.


Eww, no.

Is raising the flop so wrong here? If so, why? Or was it mainly the turn play that yucked you out?
 
bgomez89

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why do you like raising the flop?
 
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BigThingWithHolesInIt

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Because imo there are a lot of bluffs in his range that he is able to double barrel.
Against a tighter aggressive opponent I would sooner opt to float.
 
bgomez89

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so you want to raise his bluffs because you're scared about him bluffing the turn too :confused: ?
 
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BigThingWithHolesInIt

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If he'll bluff the turn too, then floating doesn't work, does it?

In this hand the turn J was a bit of luck. Villain often holds an A or K which means we can't beat a bluff if we don't hit our straight, moreover a K is one of our outs. So I would be interested in maximizing fold equity.

I don't actually think the suggested play is bad, but I just wondered why a semi-bluff would be considered a wrong play. It seems a good spot to me, unless villain is so tilty he'll definitely shove OTF.
 
c9h13no3

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If he'll bluff the turn too, then floating doesn't work, does it?
So we call the turn too....

I don't actually think the suggested play is bad, but I just wondered why a semi-bluff would be considered a wrong play. It seems a good spot to me, unless villain is so tilty he'll definitely shove OTF.
Raising is bad IMO because:

We have a dominating draw (to the nuts). When we hit it'll often give villain a second best hand (like two pair, or a pair) that we can extract more value from. Also, raising this flop, we don't really represent much other than sets, Q9, AQ maybe. So a villain who can hand read at least decently well will put us on a lot of air. And lastly, there's not *that* many turn cards that villain can barrel. An ace is really it, and we can bluff/raise that card. So I'm not too worried about villain barreling every turn in the deck, since I'm planning to give up on basically none of them.

I like your thought process though. Aggressive opponent opening from the CO, they will have a lot of junk in their range, and we do have a good chunk of fold equity. So you're thinking about the hand correctly. But in this case I feel our draw is good enough and we rep more hands by floating rather than raising. If we were out of position against the button, a fold equity line would be a lot better. But in position, I typically don't mind playing the hand out on as many streets as possible.
 
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BigThingWithHolesInIt

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Thanks a lot for the well-written reply!
Let's see if I can get this straight - we can afford to float two streets, because our outs to the nut straight, and wide perceived range compensate for the times he actually has a hand on (by) the river and we don't?

Would this line still be +EV if v pots both streets?
It just seems like an expensive way to play the hand, but then again a raise OTF isn't all that cheap either.

(For the record I'll note that this post contains no sarcasm whatsoever)
 
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