$2 NLHE 6-max: Lost on post flop decision

Hey good morning everyone. I haven't posted here in forever. Took a break and am now back at it working towards being a profitable player. Here's the hand I'd like help with. I don't have a Hud so bare with me.

I've got nothing on villain as they just sat down directly to my left and have played 2 hands. Chip stacks are about even. I'm at 104 and villain is at about 110.

Everyone folds to me in CO with AK off, I raise 3 bb. Button raises to 10.5bb. I re-raise to 28 and button calls.

The flop is 38J rainbow. I bet 43bb and villain shoves....

What's the right call? I'll tell you how it ends and what I did but I'm really curious what you guys would do here.

Thanks in advance for your help : )

Sneaky Feet said:

Hey good morning everyone. I haven't posted here in forever. Took a break and am now back at it working towards being a profitable player. Here's the hand I'd like help with. I don't have a Hud so bare with me.

I've got nothing on villain as they just sat down directly to my left and have played 2 hands. Chip stacks are about even. I'm at 104 and villain is at about 110.

Everyone folds to me in CO with AK off, I raise 3 bb. Button raises to 10.5bb. I re-raise to 28 and button calls.

The flop is 38J rainbow. I bet 43bb and villain shoves....

What's the right call? I'll tell you how it ends and what I did but I'm really curious what you guys would do here.

Thanks in advance for your help : )

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Once you 4bet pre and get called just shove every flop. As played you can never fold.

J is in vills range... im folding

Any med pp is a huge fav

I know spr suggests ship it.. but seriously burning .. if the j wasnt there and it was a 3rd lowcard im calling

Aces2w1n said:

J is in vills range... im folding

Any med pp is a huge fav

I know spr suggests ship it.. but seriously burning .. if the j wasnt there and it was a 3rd lowcard im calling

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Calling 30 to win 170 though...

Like hillbilly said, jamflop

Aces2/Iplay that's just it! And why I'm wracking my brain over this one. There's a J which definitely would hit his lowest range but after a 4 bet is he really calling here with JJ? Post flop if he's hit a set why not call and let me shove the turn? I'm definitely committed.

And at the same time why wouldn't I call 30 for 170? I'm sitting at around 4.5:1 odds (IF I'm correct. Just learning more about EV). So after looking at the hand after it was played, AK to call 30 on a J high board?

HillBilly as for jamming I see that as a definite option too but why potentially scare him off?

I've got a ton of questions about this hand because it gets weirder.

Don't 4bet OOP preflop with AK. What range do you assign to your opponent?

atlantafalcons0 said:

Don't 4bet OOP preflop with AK. What range do you assign to your opponent?

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Thanks for weighing in. Can you expand on that?

Range AA KK QQ JJ (maybe) AK AQs KQs and QJs if he's REALLY loose. But chances of QJs or JJ are very low imho.

Like I say I only had 2 hands on them so really nothing.

IPlay said:

Calling 30 to win 170 though...

Like hillbilly said, jamflop

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The way the hand was posted is confusing
I gusss 30 isnt much and we just have to be right 1 out of 5 times to be ev.

Sneaky Feet said:

HillBilly as for jamming I see that as a definite option too but why potentially scare him off?

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You kind of do want to scare him off when you hold A high.

Aces2w1n said:

The way the hand was posted is confusing
I gusss 30 isnt much and we just have to be right 1 out of 5 times to be ev.

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We also have 6 outs against QQ, 3 outs against KK and will chop with AK sometimes but also, he will have JJ sometimes and we are drawing dead.

IPlay said:

You kind of do want to scare him off when you hold A high.

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You make a very good point.

Okay so here's how the rest of the hand went. Post flop I raised villain jammed and I called. The hand ran out 5 8 so 3 8 J 5 8 Rainbow. Villain turns over 8 7 hearts!!! An 8 7 suited!!!

Okay so now here's my other questions. Firstly, should villain have called a 4bet with 8 7 suited? I've definitely repped my range by 4 betting pre, and pre flop with 8 7 suited they're still at about 40-45% against AA KK. Was villains play the right one?

Then another question. Because I didn't shove on the flop did I narrow my range too much? Could this have shown that I didn't have pocket AA, KK,QQ, JJ and that's why they jammed? They had hit mid pair, I didn't shove, (I see how the hand could potentially have changed If I shoved on the flop) so they took that opportunity to get me all in?

Did I just get completely schooled by a pro at 2nl or am I way over thinking things and he's just a fish that played a really good hand by fluke? And this it at 2nl. Not 200 or 2000nl.

Seriously feels like I'm in bizzaro world!!

The stars aligned for the fish and he managed to play bad and win. You 4 bet pretty large so calling with 87s is pretty bad here.

87s is quite playable postflop but not when vill has 4b lol its a bit crazy ... i guess he figured he hit the board and thought its now or never

Sneaky Feet said:

Okay so here's how the rest of the hand went. Post flop I raised villain jammed and I called. The hand ran out 5 8 so 3 8 J 5 8 Rainbow. Villain turns over 8 7 hearts!!! An 8 7 suited!!!

Okay so now here's my other questions. Firstly, should villain have called a 4bet with 8 7 suited? I've definitely repped my range by 4 betting pre, and pre flop with 8 7 suited they're still at about 40-45% against AA KK. Was villains play the right one?

Then another question. Because I didn't shove on the flop did I narrow my range too much? Could this have shown that I didn't have pocket AA, KK,QQ, JJ and that's why they jammed? They had hit mid pair, I didn't shove, (I see how the hand could potentially have changed If I shoved on the flop) so they took that opportunity to get me all in?

Did I just get completely schooled by a pro at 2nl or am I way over thinking things and he's just a fish that played a really good hand by fluke? And this it at 2nl. Not 200 or 2000nl.

Seriously feels like I'm in bizzaro world!!

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Obviously, he put you on AK. That's what fish do to justify stupid plays like this.

As for the advice above about not 4betting AK preflop. Ignore it. It's terrible. This hands shows why. Your opponents at these stakes are willing to make huge preflop mistakes. Take full advantage of that.

Honestly, imo your only mistake was not just shoving the flop. You want to give your opponent every opportunity to fold hands like small pairs he's foolishly set-mining with in a 4bet pot. And since we're never bet-folding, shoving the flop is our best play.

Awesome guys thanks for your advice it definitely calms my mind lol.

Iplay you mention my 4bet is pretty large, is my sizing off here?

Sneaky Feet said:

Awesome guys thanks for your advice it definitely calms my mind lol.

Iplay you mention my 4bet is pretty large, is my sizing off here?

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4bets don't need to be so big but if your opponents are willing to call bigger 4bet with weak ranges it's fine. My standard 4bet here would be to about 21bbs.

What Hillbilly said about sizing. At these stakes against players flatting 87s in these spots, 4 bet large all day. As you move up to more reg heavy pools you need to be more aware of your sizings.

Would you bet that size With value? I don't think so, he might raise you pee flop with pairs that set on flop or AJ that might do that move, some pairs like 99 and 1010 can do that, how did ended up?

WVHillbilly said:

Obviously, he put you on AK. That's what fish do to justify stupid plays like this.

As for the advice above about not 4betting AK preflop. Ignore it. It's terrible. This hands shows why. Your opponents at these stakes are willing to make huge preflop mistakes. Take full advantage of that.

Honestly, imo your only mistake was not just shoving the flop. You want to give your opponent every opportunity to fold hands like small pairs he's foolishly set-mining with in a 4bet pot. And since we're never bet-folding, shoving the flop is our best play.

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Shoving with ace high into players who won't fold a flopped pair of any kind once they have 1/3 of their money in the pot is stupid.

4 betting preflop with this hand at 2nl isn't horrible. It's the simple fact that you don't have a real hand yet. AK is a drawing hand, continuing to shovel money into a pot at these limits without a pair is just stupid. Just call the 3bet and try to hit an ace or a king. We're not at 200nl so you can't expect people to ever fold preflop once they 3bet. If you're comfortable flipping for your buy in by all means do it. Otherwise play it safe and make sure you have a hand before you put money in the pot (at these limits).

Edit: To WVHILLBILLY - They don't fold small pairs at these limits once they put 1/3 of their stack in the pot. They don't fold connectors that hit middle pair backdoor draws. Sometimes players who don't play these limits make suggestions that would work at higher limits. Maybe this guy would fold to the 4bet at 200nl but not at 2nl. 4betting here is not the optimal move against these types of players.

If they are calling 4 bets with 87, then yes, 4 betting AK is optimal