$2 NLHE 6-max: KK on wet board,river shove

magicius · May 10, 2014

Hello people, during this hand i was thinking like for a minute what to do.. Hm2 shows him as loose-passive but not a great sample... what do you think about this?

Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

BTN: $1.85 (92.5 bb)
SB: $0.33 (16.5 bb)
BB: $5.56 (278 bb)
Hero (UTG): $3.86 (193 bb)
MP: $2.03 (101.5 bb)
CO: $1.23 (61.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K

K

Hero raises to $0.06, 4 folds, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.13) J

T

4

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.08, BB raises to $0.35, Hero calls $0.27

Turn: ($0.83) A

(2 players)
BB bets $0.76, Hero calls $0.76

River: ($2.35) T

(2 players)
BB bets $4.39 and is all-in, Hero folds

Results: $2.35 pot ($0.08 rake)
Final Board: J

T

4

A

T

BB mucked and won $2.27 ($1.10 net)
Hero mucked K

K

and lost (-$1.17 net)

jackaoliver · May 11, 2014

Lay down is correct, flop seems strange to me and his range has very little in it IMO. Seeing is he will be out of position I think he will be 3 betting JJ 1010 pre. So flop range is J10,AJ,KJ and 4's, all raising due to texture of board. Call is fine as you are ahead of a reasonable part of his range and you can reevaluate on turn. Turn is not good for us especially when he leads into us, narrowed range now is AJ, J10, and 44 plus a few bluffs. This is where I can't see us beating anything in his range and if he fires river we have to fold. Fold turn IMO. River is a blank and an easy fold as we are just bluff catching a small percentage of the time.

akaRobbo · May 11, 2014

This is 44 or AJ. Good fold

magicius · May 11, 2014

jackaoliver said:
Lay down is correct, flop seems strange to me and his range has very little in it IMO. Seeing is he will be out of position I think he will be 3 betting JJ 1010 pre. So flop range is J10,AJ,KJ and 4's, all raising due to texture of board. Call is fine as you are ahead of a reasonable part of his range and you can reevaluate on turn. Turn is not good for us especially when he leads into us, narrowed range now is AJ, J10, and 44 plus a few bluffs. This is where I can't see us beating anything in his range and if he fires river we have to fold. Fold turn IMO. River is a blank and an easy fold as we are just bluff catching a small percentage of the time.

Holy cow,i want ur skillz,thanks for in-depth review

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el_magiciann · May 11, 2014

magicius said:
Holy cow,i want ur skillz,thanks for in-depth review

Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk

Really great review of the villain hand and the whole situation at the table, i support it!

thatgreekdude · May 11, 2014

what could he be 3 betting us with on the flop, it's either AJ 44 J10 QKh, i would assume villain would 3bet us pre with 1010 JJ, calling the flop is fine, when the ace hits on the turn and villain leads out for almost pot (usually going for max value) it makes no sense to call the turn as we are only beating bluffs essentially, we are drawing to 6outs that can help us, even then 3 of are outs are dirty and could also improve villain, just fold turn, move on and save yourself some $$$.

John A · May 12, 2014

Fold the turn. If he's loose passive, then he's not check raising the flop (which is a 2 bet, not a 3-bet btw guys), and then continuing on the turn without a hand that beats you. Loose passive's will mostly call with flush draws unless they have a monster draw.

Also, not sure why you'd assume opponent at 2nl vs an UTG raise would be 3-betting TT/JJ. TT they will mostly flat and JJ 3-bet a % of the time.

Regardless you're beat.

kingblaze10 · May 12, 2014

It was indeed a good fold since that 10 came in the river, that 10 cause the % of your opponent having a full with 10's and more than likely 4's or just a plain 3 of a kind and even though your hand was good, its sometimes better to fold than lose more so good decision!

magicius · May 12, 2014

John A said:
Fold the turn. If he's loose passive, then he's not check raising the flop (which is a 2 bet, not a 3-bet btw guys), and then continuing on the turn without a hand that beats you. Loose passive's will mostly call with flush draws unless they have a monster draw.

Also, not sure why you'd assume opponent at 2nl vs an UTG raise would be 3-betting TT/JJ. TT they will mostly flat and JJ 3-bet a % of the time.

Regardless you're beat.

Ye my bad i didnt fold turn but i thought he wanna bluff me with crap, as for 3b in 2nl 6max,range is very wide,only nits 3bet premium,even they can sometimes 3b low pp...
I cant tell you my 3b range,but its ultra wide...

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Arjonius · May 12, 2014

magicius said:
Ye my bad i didnt fold turn but i thought he wanna bluff me with crap,

The question to ask yourself isn't just whether he might have crap, but whether he'll have it often enough to warrant calling.

magicius · May 12, 2014

Arjonius said:
The question to ask yourself isn't just whether he might have crap, but whether he'll have it often enough to warrant calling.

If it was reg table rather than zoom that would be true

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John A · May 12, 2014

Ya, I've played some 6-max before.

Typically speaking, good players won't be 3-betting small pairs or TT vs an UTG opener.

magicius said:
Ye my bad i didnt fold turn but i thought he wanna bluff me with crap, as for 3b in 2nl 6max,range is very wide,only nits 3bet premium,even they can sometimes 3b low pp...
I cant tell you my 3b range,but its ultra wide...

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hffjd2000 · May 12, 2014

I would fold likewise especially on the turn.

You said he is loose-passive. Big percentage of the time he was not bluffing on the turn.

jackaoliver · May 12, 2014

John A said:
Ya, I've played some 6-max before.

Typically speaking, good players won't be 3-betting small pairs or TT vs an UTG opener.

I played a Lot of 6max 2NL and can say that even the passive guys 3bet TT and JJ most of the time regardless of position or stack sizes. May be due to the fact that ABC poker teaches new players to 3bet premiums etc.. And TT falls into that a high percentage of the time

jackaoliver · May 12, 2014

Arjonius said:
The question to ask yourself isn't just whether he might have crap, but whether he'll have it often enough to warrant calling.

Best advice you can hear at the micros!!

magicius · May 12, 2014

I check fold23bet and if its high ill 3bet any hand from my range

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magicius · May 12, 2014

speaking of 2 nl players... maybe i overplayed but was bit tilty knocked out 10 places from itm (was like 21st/100 is bubble) JJ vs 64o... this hand happened while i was playin that tourney..

Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

BTN: $1.71 (85.5 bb)
SB: $4.06 (203 bb)
BB: $2.15 (107.5 bb)
UTG+1: $2 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $2.41 (120.5 bb)
MP1: $2.61 (130.5 bb)
Hero (MP2): $6.13 (306.5 bb)
MP3: $2.17 (108.5 bb)
CO: $2 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K

K

UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.04, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $0.12, 5 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.27) 5

8

2

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $0.16, UTG+2 calls $0.16

Turn: ($0.59) 9

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $0.28, Hero calls $0.28

River: ($1.15) A

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $1.11, Hero calls $1.11

Results: $3.37 pot ($0.12 rake)
Final Board: 5

8

2

9

A

UTG+2 showed A

Q

and won $3.25 ($1.58 net)
Hero mucked K

K

and lost (-$1.67 net)

John A · May 13, 2014

jackaoliver said:
I played a Lot of 6max 2NL and can say that even the passive guys 3bet TT and JJ most of the time regardless of position or stack sizes. May be due to the fact that ABC poker teaches new players to 3bet premiums etc.. And TT falls into that a high percentage of the time

Interesting because the stats I have on Full Tilt and pokerstars primarily don't support that as a fact. I've look at a few hundred million hands, so it might be sample size.

No doubt that some guys do and that they don't think about position or stack size though.

John A · May 13, 2014

magicius said:
speaking of 2 nl players... maybe i overplayed but was bit tilty knocked out 10 places from itm (was like 21st/100 is bubble) JJ vs 64o... this hand happened while i was playin that tourney..

Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

BTN: $1.71 (85.5 bb)
SB: $4.06 (203 bb)
BB: $2.15 (107.5 bb)
UTG+1: $2 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $2.41 (120.5 bb)
MP1: $2.61 (130.5 bb)
Hero (MP2): $6.13 (306.5 bb)
MP3: $2.17 (108.5 bb)
CO: $2 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K

K

UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.04, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $0.12, 5 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.27) 5

8

2

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $0.16, UTG+2 calls $0.16

Turn: ($0.59) 9

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $0.28, Hero calls $0.28

River: ($1.15) A

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $1.11, Hero calls $1.11

Results: $3.37 pot ($0.12 rake)
Final Board: 5

8

2

9

A

UTG+2 showed A

Q

and won $3.25 ($1.58 net)
Hero mucked K

K

and lost (-$1.67 net)

Bet more on the flop, raise the turn, fold the river unless he's really aggressive. How come you're putting it in the spoiler? Also, don't post results.

magicius · May 13, 2014

John A said:
Bet more on the flop, raise the turn, fold the river unless he's really aggressive. How come you're putting it in the spoiler? Also, don't post results.

Thankd for advice,i like to put in spoiler ,to keep thread clean without wall of text

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Arjonius · May 13, 2014

magicius said:
If it was reg table rather than zoom that would be true

While you may have less or no player-specific info to go on, the question still applies at zoom.

jackaoliver · May 13, 2014

John A said:
Interesting because the stats I have on Full Tilt and Pokerstars primarily don't support that as a fact. I've look at a few hundred million hands, so it might be sample size.

No doubt that some guys do and that they don't think about position or stack size though.

That's true about sample size, have you got some stats you can post from those 100000000 hands regarding the JJ TT?

John A · May 13, 2014

jackaoliver said:
That's true about sample size, have you got some stats you can post from those 100000000 hands regarding the JJ TT?

They are in leak buster. I've looked at 4 samples of 100mil+ hands for NL now for the past almost 5 years now. That's not including limit or PLO, which I've also extensively analyzed.

jackaoliver · May 15, 2014

Ok cheers I must take a look!! Wasn't doubting what you were saying just trying to work out where I could view the data so I can try and improve my game!!

Falcon1803 · May 24, 2014

jackaoliver said:
Lay down is correct, flop seems strange to me and his range has very little in it IMO. Seeing is he will be out of position I think he will be 3 betting JJ 1010 pre. So flop range is J10,AJ,KJ and 4's, all raising due to texture of board. Call is fine as you are ahead of a reasonable part of his range and you can reevaluate on turn. Turn is not good for us especially when he leads into us, narrowed range now is AJ, J10, and 44 plus a few bluffs. This is where I can't see us beating anything in his range and if he fires river we have to fold. Fold turn IMO. River is a blank and an easy fold as we are just bluff catching a small percentage of the time.

Couldn't it be KQ or flush draw on the flop (AJ, AQh)? I can't understand why you suggest AJ should raise the flop instead of letting the draws to continue semibluffing.
I would fold turn as an A is likely to be in his flop semibluff range and also fills a straight

$2 NLHE 6-max: KK on wet board,river shove

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