$2 NLHE 6-max: KK vs

The call pre and since he is not agro overall, I guess it must be a set? I am pretty sure he does not see me as spewey....

poker stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 2890786
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG: $0.68 - VPIP: 50, PFR: 25, 3B: 0, AF: 3.5, hands: 16
CO: $1.44 - VPIP: 24, PFR: 13, 3B: 3, AF: 2.8, Hands: 113
Hero (BTN): $2.57
SB: $2.00 - VPIP: 14, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 7
BB: $3.18 - VPIP: 18, PFR: 14, 3B: 5, AF: 1.0, Hands: 374

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BTN with K :spade: K :heart:
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.13) 7 :diamond: 2 :club: 9 :club: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.10, BB raises to $0.24, Hero calls $0.14

Turn: ($0.61) J :heart: (2 players)
BB bets $0.40, Hero ?

Our range is kinda under-repped. We are on the BTN, and we open.

He could have a ton of hands we are beating here, FDs, 9x, 10-10, Q-Q, and even air hands. He may think this flop misses your range, so he puts the C/R in. After he C/r the flop, he is committing some chips on all turns, to proceed with his story.


That being said, I call turn, and re-evaluate the river. We could even argue 3b him OTF. However, I like having position here, so flat call is fine.

But if he bets turn, bets river, his range will shrink considerably. I would expect us to be ahead alot with the information provided up to the turn.

I don't agree that we are underrepped. Our range for c-betting and calling a flop raise is going to be pretty strong. Overpairs, combo draws, pair + FD, FDs, and top two.

Against a player with such a low AF, you can find an exploitable flop fold. He most likely has a made hand, and you are drawing pretty thin with no BDFD or BDSD. Even if he has a combo draw, he has more equity than you do. You don't beat any value hands. 3-betting flop is the worst of the 3 options imo. He's most likely going with the hand (and he has a made hand here almost always), so calling a 4-bet flop shove is suicidal. If he had a higher AF, definitely calling flop and some turns.

MinhANguyen said:

I don't agree that we are underrepped. Our range for c-betting and calling a flop raise is going to be pretty strong. Overpairs, combo draws, pair + FD, FDs, and top two.

Against a player with such a low AF, you can find an exploitable flop fold. He most likely has a made hand, and you are drawing pretty thin with no BDFD or BDSD. Even if he has a combo draw, he has more equity than you do. You don't beat any value hands. 3-betting flop is the worst of the 3 options imo. He's most likely going with the hand (and he has a made hand here almost always), so calling a 4-bet flop shove is suicidal. If he had a higher AF, definitely calling flop and some turns.

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Excellent as always Minh.

I folded the turn. I think there is no way I want to stay in this hand any longer vs him.

Any thoughts on my flop call? Minh, sounds like you think a fold would be prudent here?

Fwiw, I'm never folding flop here. I think a fold is literally only based on his AF, although he does seem to be a little tight too. His stats indicate he's competent which means that he might just assume you've missed this board (like BFK) says and he's loading on the heat with something like 98 or 9J. We can definitely call in position.

Turn completes 8T and gives some of his CR for value hands 2pair. Pretty bad turn TBH, so I think a fold OTT is much more justifiable than one on the flop.

How wide is he calling out of the big blind, if it's very tight I would be more inclined to fold, and vice versa for the opposite. Against some opponents I'm definitely reraising his small raise. I'm still probably calling the turn and reevaluate on the river. His raise looks to me as mostly draws.

I think you had an opportunity to reraise on the flop and you should have taken it. As played you need to go all in.

Thanks Bean .

Yes, I think we should be folding this flop vs our opponent here, Fletch. Sure, he may have random 5% spazzes with TP on the flop, but against his entire range, you are a huge dog. With his AF stats, he'd be so much more likely to call down a combo draw, FD, or TP hand than check-raise. Against someone with a higher AF, calling flop and a decent amount of turns is ideal. Just thank him for saving you money .

MinhANguyen said:

Thanks Bean .

Yes, I think we should be folding this flop vs our opponent here, Fletch. Sure, he may have random 5% spazzes with TP on the flop, but against his entire range, you are a huge dog. With his AF stats, he'd be so much more likely to call down a combo draw, FD, or TP hand than check-raise. Against someone with a higher AF, calling flop and a decent amount of turns is ideal. Just thank him for saving you money .

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No offense guys but this is just horrible advice in here. I rarely come flat out and say that, even if it's prevalent in a thread, but come on. You guys are better than this. Put his opponent on a range of specific hands, and talk about that.

There's no way you come up with a decent range where HERO is not way ahead on the turn. And also, guys with low AF's will do dumb things out of the blinds especially in an open BTN blind defense spot.

You should be 3-betting the flop, or jamming the turn here. It's really not close.

John A said:

No offense guys but this is just horrible advice in here. I rarely come flat out and say that, even if it's prevalent in a thread, but come on. You guys are better than this. Put his opponent on a range of specific hands, and talk about that.

There's no way you come up with a decent range where HERO is not way ahead on the turn. And also, guys with low AF's will do dumb things out of the blinds especially in an open BTN blind defense spot.

You should be 3-betting the flop, or jamming the turn here. It's really not close.

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There's one problem for me... I don't know what the stats mean except for PFR and VPIP. I am mostly a live player, and I have only played micros online for the most part. I never had a HUD. So I don't really understand the AF, and how it relates to ranges.

An explanation of these stats would be helpful for me, for future reference. No big deal though either way.

Beanfacekilla said:

Our range is kinda under-repped. We are on the BTN, and we open.

He could have a ton of hands we are beating here, FDs, 9x, 10-10, Q-Q, and even air hands. He may think this flop misses your range, so he puts the C/R in. After he C/r the flop, he is committing some chips on all turns, to proceed with his story.


That being said, I call turn, and re-evaluate the river. We could even argue 3b him OTF. However, I like having position here, so flat call is fine.

But if he bets turn, bets river, his range will shrink considerably. I would expect us to be ahead alot with the information provided up to the turn.

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And this is what I said right off the bat.

If it's wrong or bad, that's fine. But I always like to learn. So run through it with me, and explain it in detail. I sure would like to have some food for thought.

John A said:

No offense guys but this is just horrible advice in here. I rarely come flat out and say that, even if it's prevalent in a thread, but come on. You guys are better than this. Put his opponent on a range of specific hands, and talk about that.

There's no way you come up with a decent range where HERO is not way ahead on the turn. And also, guys with low AF's will do dumb things out of the blinds especially in an open BTN blind defense spot.

You should be 3-betting the flop, or jamming the turn here. It's really not close.

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No offense, but you are coming off as pretty arrogant. It's not just in this hand, but sometimes you flat-out make counterarguments without solid evidence against it or for your case. Like isolating 88 vs overlimping in the SB vs 4 other limpers.

Range? I give him a range of 99/77/22/97s/very few combos of 108s, NFDs, and pair + FDs like 109cc or 98cc/one combo of TP spaz. KK's equity aginst that range sucks. All sets and two pairs are raising this flop, so we are screwed by 9 combos of sets, 4 combos of 97s, and aren't even ahead of his semi-bluffing range. He has 0 bluffs here, and almost never has a lone pair.

Also, the lower stakes you play, the way less aggressively people play draws. From my experience, people did not start playing draws anywhere near aggressively until 25NL. Even at 50NL/100NL people don't play draws aggressively as they should. And people are much more likely to float draws and then bluff, rather than bluff-raise.

I don't really see any merit in 3-betting the flop or shoving the turn. I think 3-betting the flop and shoving the turn are much worse than calling or folding, especially given his AF. Unless they are a complete fish or aggrotard, no one is stacking off over a flop 3-bet with the NFD, lone FD, or random top pair spazzes. So we're basically isolating ourselves and getting it in exclusively towards sets, two pairs, and huge combo draws, which we have terrible equity against.

Also, I don't find that people from the blinds play back at the BTN much postflop. Even pre this doesn't even start existing until at least 10/25NL and doesn't get ramped up until 50/100NL. Most aggression blind vs BTN is pre, not post. This is 2NL, so I don't expect people to play back at all much blind vs BTN, especially postflop. They aren't even positionally aware in the first place. So they don't think "Oh, he should have a 40-60% opening range OTB, he's going to c-bet this flop pretty wide, and he can't continue with the vast majority of his range. So I'm going to have a wide check-raising range here." And even if players do know this like at higher stakes, they might not actually have a wide CR range here. I don't think people are really inclined to stack off here with lone FDs or 50/50 combo draws and make variance extremely high. And the fact that he has an AF of 1 makes the likelihood he's playing back here pretty unlikely.

I seriously don't know why people use blind vs BTN as an excuse to get it in light postflop, unless you're playing really good, balanced regs in mid/high stakes. I don't remember who told me, but people play back at you way less than you think they do. And after they told me that, I started thinking about it and found it true, even as I kept moving up in stakes. People just use blind vs BTN as an excuse to level themselves and go broke, and when they lose, they complain that they just "ran into the top of their opponent's range." It's ridiculous.

Here's a link on AF if anyone wants to read it: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-software-tools-61/. I personally prefer using aggression frequency, as it gives us information on their aggression tendencies faster than AF does.

MinhANguyen said:

No offense, but you are coming off as pretty arrogant. It's not just in this hand, but sometimes you flat-out make counterarguments without solid evidence against it or for your case. Like isolating 88 vs overlimping in the SB vs 4 other limpers.

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I wasn't speaking specifically about you, but yes, you advice was bad too. It's not arrogant, it's just a fact. If you have questions about my advice, then just ask.

Range? I give him a range of 99/77/22/97s/very few combos of 108s, NFDs, and pair + FDs like 109cc or 98cc/one combo of TP spaz. KK's equity aginst that range sucks. All sets and two pairs are raising this flop, so we are screwed by 9 combos of sets, 4 combos of 97s, and aren't even ahead of his semi-bluffing range. He has 0 bluffs here, and almost never has a lone pair.

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Your range is wrong, and it's off by a lot. It's going to look more like this:

Ace Poker Drills Poker Equity Calculator
Board: 9c 7d 2c Jh

Equity Win Tie Hand Range
68.5811% 68.5811% 0% [ KhKs ]
31.4189% 31.4189% 0% [ 99-QQ(100), 22(100), A9s(100), A9o-AJo(100), KcJc(100), KsJs(100), KcQc(100), Ac7c(100), 97s(100), AJs(100), J9s+(100), T9s(100), 77(100), AcTc(100) ]


And I'm not even including a ton more draws that should be there.

Also, the lower stakes you play, the way less aggressively people play draws. From my experience, people did not start playing draws anywhere near aggressively until 25NL. Even at 50NL/100NL people don't play draws aggressively as they should. And people are much more likely to float draws and then bluff, rather than bluff-raise.

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I'm fully aware of how people play at all stakes. I've played or coached them all.

I don't really see any merit in 3-betting the flop or shoving the turn. I think 3-betting the flop and shoving the turn are much worse than calling or folding, especially given his AF. Unless they are a complete fish or aggrotard, no one is stacking off over a flop 3-bet with the NFD, lone FD, or random top pair spazzes. So we're basically isolating ourselves and getting it in exclusively towards sets, two pairs, and huge combo draws, which we have terrible equity against.

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Because it's a low flop in a blind defense spot. People will stack off lighter. Even nits. You're 3-betting the flop or shoving the turn for value. It's really simple.

Also, I don't find that people from the blinds play back at the BTN much postflop. Even pre this doesn't even start existing until at least 10/25NL and doesn't get ramped up until 50/100NL. Most aggression blind vs BTN is pre, not post. This is 2NL, so I don't expect people to play back at all much blind vs BTN, especially postflop. They aren't even positionally aware in the first place. So they don't think "Oh, he should have a 40-60% opening range OTB, he's going to c-bet this flop pretty wide, and he can't continue with the vast majority of his range. So I'm going to have a wide check-raising range here." And even if players do know this like at higher stakes, they might not actually have a wide CR range here. I don't think people are really inclined to stack off here with lone FDs or 50/50 combo draws and make variance extremely high. And the fact that he has an AF of 1 makes the likelihood he's playing back here pretty unlikely.

I seriously don't know why people use blind vs BTN as an excuse to get it in light postflop, unless you're playing really good, balanced regs in mid/high stakes. I don't remember who told me, but people play back at you way less than you think they do. And after they told me that, I started thinking about it and found it true, even as I kept moving up in stakes. People just use blind vs BTN as an excuse to level themselves and go broke, and when they lose, they complain that they just "ran into the top of their opponent's range." It's ridiculous.

Here's a link on AF if anyone wants to read it: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-software-tools-61/. I personally prefer using aggression frequency, as it gives us information on their aggression tendencies faster than AF does.

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I'm guessing you don't understand about the dynamic and range that's happening because you play a much more passive game and you're projecting that a lot onto your opponents. It's a common thing people do.

Like I said, I don't ever come off that direct, but there's been so many recent posts on these threads w/ just really really bad advice that I felt compelled to say something. I think we're all adults and can deal with being wrong. If not, then this isn't the game for you.

I would agree with you about my range being off if his AF were higher. You probably already know, but people with low AF are much more likely to flat with pairs, floats, and draws than raise them. How does a guy with an AF of 1 CR hands like KJs/AJo with no equity against our continuing range. And if our opponent is as competent as you imply he is with his wide CR range, he should realize that when we c-bet this board, our range is going to be much stronger than say on a dry, rainbow board of J42r where we bet almost our entire range and cannot continue vs a CR. And you are giving him way too many semi-bluffing combos/TP combos. Even if he does CR semi-bluffs, we can't assume he CRs all of them. And we can't assume he's the type of player to CR a lot or all of his TP hands. And I'm also sure you know raising TP here is pretty dumb, so any competent player pretty much never has that in his range. But we can assume he CR all his sets and two pairs.

And almost nobody has 1010-QQ in their flop CR here, like ever. From what I've heard, only live donks do that. With his 3b % and because it's blind v BTN, JJ/QQ almost always 3-bet pre, 1010 a decent amount too. And CRing 1010 is pretty bad here. Hard to get to SD cheaply, takes away our opponent's bluffs, isolates ourselves against hands with strong equity, we're OOP and barreling turns can lead us to valueowning ourselves. I'm pretty sure if you took out 1010-QQ from your range analysis, your equity would plummet just from those 3 hands alone. You're saying blind v BTN people play back much more, yet include all combos of 1010-QQ in his flop CR range. That doesn't even make any sense. If they really play back as much as you claim, 1010-QQ almost always 3-bet pre.

Yeah, you still really haven't explained how stacking off KK here is profitable vs this particular opponent. You just gave him an arbitrary range and saying that KK has a massive equity advantage. Let's say that KK has decent equity against his flop CR range. Is he really calling a flop 3-bet or turn shove with hands like AJo, KJo, 1010-QQ? No, unless he's a complete fish. Basically the only hands we have decent equity against you are getting to fold.

Yes, I do know what betting or shoving for value is. This doesn't seem like one of them. If there were a dynamic going on between the two players or if he had a had aggression, I'd be fine with a flop 3-bet although I prefer to call down to keep in the weaker portion of his range. And I don't get where you get this idea of my projecting my "passive" tendencies onto others. I've played 500k hands from 5NL to 100NL, and I'm just pointing out the tendencies of players. My flop CR range has nothing to do with that.

Yeah, I do think you are coming off even more arrogant in your most recent post. We all have opinions on our own, and I don't mind you trying to prove your point. But the fact that you say that you're 100% right, that it's fact, and that we're all adults and can deal with being wrong (which implies I'm 100% wrong), that seems pretty arrogant of you. And I don't know why you think you're entitled to say that this game is not for me. I've worked hard to graduate from 5NL to 100NL in a short period of time, and understand a lot about the game. That's a big insult, and I don't appreciate your implication that I shouldn't be playing this game just because I don't agree with you on how to play certain hands. I'll admit I've been wrong on several hand analysis, and I do consider and learn from other people's input. So I also don't appreciate you saying that I'm the type of person to not accept when I'm wrong because I am open-minded.

I didn't say you shouldn't be playing if you don't agree with me. You're interpreting a lot of what I said.

There's so much wrong in what you're saying, I don't have time break it down. I say something like, people play back more in these dynamic situations and you only equate that to pre-flop. People playing back only happens pre-flop, someone can't flat JJ and then CR the flop.

My initial post was directed at everyone. But I can see how you took it personal. Your advice is way off. It happens. Low aggression players will make CR's on low dry boards. Just because they are low aggression, doesn't mean they won't. It means they are less likely, and hence why I only put a couple of semi bluff hands that turned pairs. More aggressive players would have a much wider range in this spot. This is a very straight forward value range I posted.

Maybe what you're missing is that there's a ton of worse hands that could be seen as value hands in this spot. I honestly don't know. In general when players at micro stakes play back, they tend to have it. Sometimes however they are confused about what a value range is, and what their opponents second best range is and often over value their own range. It's because they just don't know any better. I'm not going to explain them all in this post.

I was being overly blunt because I literally read 8-9 posts in a row with just horrible horrible advice, no hand ranges written, no content of any sort. I assume people are here posting hands trying to learn. So let's keep it to that and move on.

John A said:

No offense guys but this is just horrible advice in here. I rarely come flat out and say that, even if it's prevalent in a thread, but come on. You guys are better than this. Put his opponent on a range of specific hands, and talk about that.

There's no way you come up with a decent range where HERO is not way ahead on the turn. And also, guys with low AF's will do dumb things out of the blinds especially in an open BTN blind defense spot.

You should be 3-betting the flop, or jamming the turn here. It's really not close.

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Have to agree, folding KK here otf is just lighting money on fire imo.

From what I can tell, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. You said that people play back with certain dynamics pre, and I interpret it as pre only. Like what? I know that people play back pre and post with dynamics like blind v BTN, but I am saying post it's not as much as you think they do. Especially against a 2NL player with an AF of 1 and 90%+ of the time not even strongly positionally aware to the point where he should know he should have a wide CR range blind v BTN because BTN has a wide range of opening raise/c-betting. And second of all, with a guy having a 5% 3-bet stat, he's almost always 3-betting 1010-QQ pre blind v BTN. So I don't see how you gave all combos of 1010-QQ to his flop CR range. I'm not saying it's impossible for him to have JJ AND cr the flop. I'm saying it's super unlikely. A generous range would be giving him .5 combos of JJ. I just think your range for his flop CR is really off. Yes, I know people with low AF will make moves on low dryish boards at times. And yes, they may overvalue their "value" hands. I never said these were impossible. Im saying against his whole range we are a dog, but you don't seem to agree. Maybe my range was a little tight, but imo your range is wayyyy too wide for a 2NL player who's probably not positionally aware and isn't anywhere near aggressive as he should be. If every 2NL player knew how to bluff-raise and have such a decent playback range like you have, we should all quit online poker then. That kind of competence isn't going to be present until at the very minimum 100NL, mostly like mid/high stakes though.

And you're saying we should 3-bet KK for value. Well, I'm pretty sure you're not 3-betting here with the intention of folding to a jam. So what you're saying is KK is ahead of a 4-bet flop shove range. Sounds REALLY optimistic to me.

But yeah, we're probably going to have to agree to disagree.

Just calm down and don't take it so personal. You're here to learn also correct? So what range then are you putting him on that Hero is behind. I'm removing all of his draws except for a combo draw. Look where Hero is:

Ace Poker Drills Poker Equity Calculator
Board: 9c 7d 2c Jh

Equity Win Tie Hand Range
64.2256% 64.2256% 0% [ KhKs ]
35.7744% 35.7744% 0% [ 99-QQ(100), 22(100), A9s(100), A9o(100), KcJc(100), KsJs(100), Ac7c(100), 97s(100), AJs(100), AJo(100), J9s(100), 77(100) ]


What other hands do you want to remove?

And yes, I'm saying that you'd be ahead of his 4-bet flop shoving range. If I didn't think that, then you should be folding the flop because you're not calling to induce more bluffs out of a tight player.

You're just plain wrong, but there's no point in making it personal. I wasn't trying to pick on you, and I probably shouldn't have quoted you, but your advice stood out, not just on this thread, but it was a couple of others.

I have nothing against you, and I apologize if you think I came off too harsh, but it was intentional. What you guy are posting in here right now is just a waste of time if you're not talking about range and pushing each other to be better players.

Hu4rollz, can't silence me semper!

Maybe I was taking it somewhat personal in my other post, but I don't see how my most recent post was personal. And xdeucesx, I didn't say I was better than him haha. I agree a lot with what he says, but some things I don't.

The only reason why KK has such massive equity in your range analysis is because you added all combos of 1010-QQ, which I have already explained multiple times is super unrealistic. We have a decent sample size over him; he's 3-betted 5% over the past 374 hands. QQ/JJ are top 3% of hands, and for him not to be 3-betting them vs our BTN open, and then CRing them on the flop instead is questionable. He might do this with 1010, but even then that 3-bets a lot pre. And when he does flat 1010, I don't think he CR that many remaining combos of them.

Against a flop CR range (I think I'm being a little generous):

KK: 50.2%
[AJcc, A9cc, A2cc, J9cc, T9cc, T8cc, 99, 98cc, 97s, 77, 22] + [4/12 combos of A9o, 1 combo of TT, 2 combos of bluff-raises/spazzes/random stuff like AJo/middle pair]: 49.8%


For a 4-bet flop shoving range, my range I gave him is:

KK: 38.26%
[99, 77, 22, AcJc, Ac9c, Ac7c, Ac2c, J9cc, Tc9c, Tc8c, 9c8c, 97s]: 61.73%

I think you're being way too generous with his 4-bet shoving range if you think KK is ahead of it. I don't think anyone is ever CRing A9o/J9ss/J9hh/J9dd without clubs, for example, on this board and 4-bet jamming over the PFR's 3-bet when the PFR has an extremely strong range for doing so, without some sort of strong history/dynamic between the two players.

I think the range you gave him for flop CR would be a good reg's CR range at a minimum of 50/100NL with good aggression levels. For a 2NL player who is not positionally aware; is generally way more passive than the strong regs higher up who can read, understand, and play back at certain ranges; and has a low AF, your flop CR range is too wide. And even if it were true, his 4-bet flop shoving range is not the same as his flop CR range. I'm sure KK will be at the very minimum a slight dog against his 4-bet/stack-off range.

With his new range for CRing flop, I think calling down reasonable runouts (unless he bombs the river on a complete blank) is > 3-bet/calling off or shoving the turn. 3-bet/calling off or shoving the turn massively reduces our equity against his range. It's pretty optimistic to be thinking that he'll stack off with hands like J9s with no clubs, A9o with no straight draws, etc when we 3-bet the flop and especially when we raise the turn. And if he's making random spaz plays with stuff like middle pair/AJo, we allow him to get away from those hands, making our equity drop even further.

I don't really care if you think I'm 100% wrong, and that my advice is bad. Yeah, it could be true to some extent, or totally true. But saying that I should be an adult and accept when I'm wrong, and following that up with saying I shouldn't be playing this game, is going pretty overboard. For a coach that should be encouraging and teaching other players, that seems pretty out of line. It doesn't matter how good you are.

Minh, not w/John, w/the other dude! lol

xdeucesx said:

Hu4rollz, can't silence me semper!

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Lol.

I forgot.

Holy crap. He was 10 times worse than Aaron Soto. I don't know what his problem is. And he claims to be all-mighty (just like Aaron) just because he's been crushing 1/3 and 2/5 for 30 years. After 30 years, you'd think a competent live player would be properly rolled and skilled enough to be playing high stakes live poker, at least 5/10 at the very minimum. And he thinks that 100NL online is nowhere near "tough" as his 1/3 tables LOL. 100NL online is a beast, and I'll admit I get outplayed decently often. I don't really like HU that much, but if he asked me to play HU4Rollz I'd have a hard time saying no. Maybe he's Aaron's dad.

xdeucesx said:

Minh, not w/John, w/the other dude! lol

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Was a post deleted? I cant find who you mean...???

But I appreciate the comments and discussion. I folded, and thought it was probably good, but wasnt sure, hence my posting of the hand. The thread gives me a lot of food for thought.

fletchdad said:

Was a post deleted? I cant find who you mean...???

But I appreciate the comments and discussion. I folded, and thought it was probably good, but wasnt sure, hence my posting of the hand. The thread gives me a lot of food for thought.

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lots of posts deleted Some troll was all, nothing worth noting lol.