$2 NLHE 6-max: Was I too aggresive? I had no business in there, right?

JayLoyal

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$2 NLHE 6-max: Was I too aggresive? I had no business in there, right?

$0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 28.91, PFR: 15.78, 3Bet Preflop: 5.87, hands: 4,801)
SB: 93.5 BB (VPIP: 28.51, PFR: 16.62, 3Bet Preflop: 6.15, Hands: 4,854)
BB: 167.5 BB (VPIP: 27.94, PFR: 16.36, 3Bet Preflop: 7.36, Hands: 3,935)
UTG: 97.5 BB (VPIP: 30.73, PFR: 15.16, 3Bet Preflop: 4.24, Hands: 3,868)
Hero (CO): 105.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 6 6

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, BB raises to 12 BB, Hero calls 9 BB, fold

Flop: (27 BB, 2 players) 9 6 Q
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (27 BB, 2 players) Q
BB bets 17 BB, Hero raises to 70.5 BB, BB raises to 124 BB, Hero calls 23 BB and is all-in

River: (214 BB, 2 players) A

BB shows A:club:

Unless it's too high of an amount, I usually cold call or even 3bet pocket pairs. I wouldn't pay more than 12bb for low pocket pairs but it's just set mining. if i dont get the set, i get out of there quick. i got the set here and i checked.......on the turn i figured he caught a queen.i dunno....,I feel like an idiot now, but he was playing relatively loose.:(

I'm kind of on tilt now, I'm takin a break hehehe
thanks for any input guys! awesome site!
 
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c9h13no3

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Fold pre, bet the flop, fist-pump call when he shoves.
 
TheBigFinn

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I am confused. What was Villain's second card. Unless it was an Ace or a queen you won, so I assume it was one of those.

66 is a marginal open and I wouldn't call per flop. As played you are doing a happy dance when it hits. You have got to figure Villain for broadways and big pairs and should be looking to get it all in. I don't understand why players think they are fooling anyone when they have a strong enough hand to bet call a 3-bet in the cutoff. What kind of hand do think Villain has that you beat on the flop and won't call, but would improve enough turn that Villain to call. Would you still beat that hand?

when you are checked to on the flop you have to beat. If Villain folds you win a small pot, if he calls you have to wonder and if he 3 bets again on 99 and QQ are ahead of you, so I'd push. That's functional what happened on the turn, so there isn't much change as played.
 
JayLoyal

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I am confused. What was Villain's second card. Unless it was an Ace or a queen you won, so I assume it was one of those.

66 is a marginal open and I wouldn't call per flop. As played you are doing a happy dance when it hits. You have got to figure Villain for broadways and big pairs and should be looking to get it all in. I don't understand why players think they are fooling anyone when they have a strong enough hand to bet call a 3-bet in the cutoff. What kind of hand do think Villain has that you beat on the flop and won't call, but would improve enough turn that Villain to call. Would you still beat that hand?

when you are checked to on the flop you have to beat. If Villain folds you win a small pot, if he calls you have to wonder and if he 3 bets again on 99 and QQ are ahead of you, so I'd push. That's functional what happened on the turn, so there isn't much change as played.
thanks bro!

you're totally right, my play had no logic and that's why i posted it. your post has helped me alot. thanks again!

he totally had aces and im a fool for playing like this!!:top:
 
Bozovicdj

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Don't think you are a fool... I mean, you got him to go all in on the turn with a worse hand then yours, meaning you extracted max value, he got lucky on the river and that is just it.
On the other hand, you probably shouldn't have called that 12BB reraise preflop. You are only fishing for a 6, since you are probably beat by big pocket pairs.
Once you called, and saw that flop, your play was pretty standard. :)
 
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Imo calling 3bet was borderline but not wrong ~12x, combined to SB calling more than not. When SB does not call we don’t make profit that much if any, but probably do not lose money either. Of course if BB likes to squeeze light, then setmining is wrong, but this kind of behavior is not common from stats who likes to call in 2NL.

Villain has non-tag stats, he calls too much but still 3bets quite much (most likely overplay), making him probably prone both calling mistakes and aggression mistakes, so our chances to score big if we hit is reasonable.

Edit I miss-calculated 11x.
 
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c9h13no3

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Since when is 11x implied odds enough to setmine? Find me a reference. The Cardschat one has 15x as minimum.

https://www.cardschat.com/set-mining-poker.php
 
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I agree with c9h re needing higher implied odds.

Also, implied odds are not identical to the depth of a villain's stack. They are always an estimate.

The villain needs to be willing to pay you off, which depends on whether they make a strong hand, and how tight they are post-flop.

In this case, the villain's 3-bet range of 7% is {88+,ATs+,AJo+}. There are a lot of Ax hands in there that don't pay the hero off if they miss the board, and pairs like 88-KK that don't pay the hero off if an overcard is on the board.

Making sure the villain or villains have a deep enough stack is only the beginning of the decision about whether to set-mine.
 
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Since when is 11x implied odds enough to setmine? Find me a reference. The Cardschat one has 15x as minimum.

I do agree that official number is 15x. However lower number is used by many winning players it seems. For example Carver called (once that I remember) 3bet with implied odds 10x.
Here is one reference for winning player, post 37, https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/lets-try-become-a-winning-player-349511/index2.html

I agree with c9h re needing higher implied odds.
So you don’t give value for SB calling? If he calls 33% our implied multiplier raises to something like 14x.

In this case, the villain's 3-bet range of 7% is {88+,ATs+,AJo+}.
If this is indeed villain’s range, like I said in my post, this is obvious fold. However, squeeze ranges are typically closer to 4bet ranges at least in 6max zoom 2NL and those are tight. We have enough hands to see what villain’s squeeze range is in this case.
 
Figaroo2

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Regardless of the Preflop issues why aren't you betting the flop?...you must hate cash or have fancy play syndrome.
 
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I do agree that official number is 15x. However lower number is used by many winning players it seems. For example Carver called (once that I remember) 3bet with implied odds 10x.
Here is one reference for winning player, post 37, https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/lets-try-become-a-winning-player-349511/index2.html


15x is on the low end. Harrington, for example, recommends 25x (which does seem too high to me).

There are exceptions to nearly every poker rule, but I don't see any reason why this hand would be one of them. And good players make mistakes too.

In the hand example in your link, SB calls 3BB, effective stacks are over 100BB.
So the stacks are deep enough, though the implied odds may not be good enough.

With much respect to Beanface, who is a successful thinking player, the hands I have seen him post in his thread are at 1/2 live. I'm interested in his opinion on hands, but I think he'd be surprised to be quoted as a poker authority at this point in his career!

So you don’t give value for SB calling? If he calls 33% our implied multiplier raises to something like 14x.

Valid point, if the SB calls it's a better situation, although still a marginal one. So the hero's choice is:
- fold and accept the 3BB loss
- call and hope that the SB calls, so that he can spend an additional 9BB to find himself in a situation that is on the border between profitability and loss over the long term.

This is not a difficult choice.

If this is indeed villain’s range, like I said in my post, this is obvious fold. However, squeeze ranges are typically closer to 4bet ranges at least in 6max zoom 2NL and those are tight. We have enough hands to see what villain’s squeeze range is in this case.

At 29/17, the SB has pre-flop calling station tendencies. BB may have noticed this and decided he probably doesn't have a strong hand.
Still, we can give the BB a narrower range than if the SB had not called.
But the BB's 3-bet stat of 7 also includes 3-bets he might have made from the CO or earlier, where we can assume his range was much narrower.
So narrow the BB's range a bit because the SB called, but widen it a bit because he's in the BB, and because he has one opponent who may be calling light, and the other opponent may be stealing with a mediocre hand.
 
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braveslice

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, but I think he'd be surprised to be quoted as a poker authority at this point in his career!
=)
I have almost as good player than him to say 10-1, just today, Jonathan Little when commenting final table (wsop 2k or something like that). Now I would guess tourney is a bit different because reward is usually much sweeter and easier to get.

But lets agree with fold. I hope you noticed that my expectations for the call was +-0 EV before agreeing to fold.

If we get his autonote squeeze range, I will reserve a right to change my mind again. I usually auto fold these anyways without some kind of notes for extra information.

I also need to argue that hoping SB to call is bad wording I gave him exactly 33% chance to call :p
 
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I also need to argue that hoping SB to call is bad wording I gave him exactly 33% chance to call :p

Sorry braveslice, I saw that you had discounted the effective stacks based on an estimate of the SB's chance of calling. I didn't mean to imply otherwise!
 
JayLoyal

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Regardless of the Preflop issues why aren't you betting the flop?...you must hate cash or have fancy play syndrome.
ok.....just had to be a smart.... about it? yea man i hate cash, thanks for your input!:rolleyes:
 
Figaroo2

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ok.....just had to be a smart.... about it? yea man i hate cash, thanks for your input!:rolleyes:
Sorry it was snide, I should know better, but you called when you shouldn't and didn't bet when you should...what exactly do you want to hear? that you played it well?
When you have a value hand, bet it for value, don't try and get fancy.
 
JayLoyal

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Sorry it was snide, I should know better, but you called when you shouldn't and didn't bet when you should...what exactly do you want to hear? that you played it well?
When you have a value hand, bet it for value, don't try and get fancy.

Why do you think I'm here? To learn how to play better. I never said I played it well, I specifically said I played it horribly. Jeeeez brother what's your problem? Think your gods gift to poker or something? Wow

Thanks everyone for your contribution, I'm learning.
 
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Generally, calling 3 bets to set mine is bad. UNLESS you know you're opponent will stack off most of the times you hit a set. You got your $ in ahead, so don't look at the result and think you messed up because you lost the hand.

It seems your opponent will get it in light-ish (you could have a Q in that spot and all the sets), so vs this opponent, your call of the 3 bet pf looks OK. And he sucked out. Bummer.
 
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Generally, calling 3 bets to set mine is bad. UNLESS you know you're opponent will stack off most of the times you hit a set. You got your $ in ahead, so don't look at the result and think you messed up because you lost the hand.

It seems your opponent will get it in light-ish (you could have a Q in that spot and all the sets), so vs this opponent, your call of the 3 bet pf looks OK. And he sucked out. Bummer.

There's no indication that the hero knew pre-flop that the villain was likely to stack off if he hit his set. The villain's 3-bet stat suggests otherwise, as discussed above.

I think you are looking at the result and deciding the pre-flop action was OK because this time villain had a pair, and he was willing to stack off with it.
 
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Hi guys. Im kinda late to the party. Its an interesting discussion and I have a question!

Until which pocket pair do we call 3bets if we have to call 10% of our/V's stack?

I assume its something like this:
Kk+: 4bet
Qq: 4bet or call (setmine)
JJ-: setmine/fold

Would we fold JJ here? Or do we for example call 99-JJ but fold the 88-?

I have no idea. Until know I followed beans advice on calling if its 10% or less of one of the stack sizes. But I might change it after reading this thread. I dont know where to put my cutoff though.

I feel like im rambling, is my question clear?
 
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Hi guys. Im kinda late to the party. Its an interesting discussion and I have a question!

Until which pocket pair do we call 3bets if we have to call 10% of our/V's stack?

I assume its something like this:
Kk+: 4bet
Qq: 4bet or call (setmine)
JJ-: setmine/fold

Would we fold JJ here? Or do we for example call 99-JJ but fold the 88-?

I have no idea. Until know I followed beans advice on calling if its 10% or less of one of the stack sizes. But I might change it after reading this thread. I dont know where to put my cutoff though.

I feel like im rambling, is my question clear?

I think it's clear enough, but I don't have an answer. Position? Opponent's stats? Heads-up or multi-way? Are we being asked to put in 15% of the effective stack size, or 30%? This is the cash thread, so I assume the question is about cash games?

Set-mining heads-up is usually a losing proposition. But if there is a lot of AK and AQ in your opponent's range, you are not just set-mining with QQ or JJ.

In the specific hand we are discussing here, I'd call JJ, QQ, and AK, re-raise KK and AA, and fold the rest.

It sounds like bean is using a version of the rule of 5 and 10:

http://cardsharp.org/the-510-rule/
 
Sil3ntness

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Others already mentioned set mining odds and reverse implied odds (Set over set like the AA > 66).

I too am leaning towards a fold preflop when BB 3 bets for 4x the initial raise. The only problem though is that poker isn't so straight forward. This is only $2NL so I don't know if villains here are capable of 3 betting light to squeeze "dead money". Could BB be doing this with any two broadway cards, suited Aces, or lower pocket pairs? In a vacuum state though I would lean towards a fold.

Postflop, you decided to check back the flop. That can be good or bad depending on the opponent. If they fold too often, then yeah you would probably want to reel them in on the turn. If they call too often and especially call flop floats, then it would probably be more EV+ to just go ahead and bet the flop whether small or big.
 
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