$2 NLHE 6-max: Fold turn over pair?

Hey,

V is 18/15 over 45 hands. I expected her range to be tight- small suited aces, suited cons +44, 88.

Should I call on the flop expecting V to give up turn? It is immediately profitable to call since I expect most combos betting to be bluffs here. On the turn I expect only a few combos to continue (J of clubs blocks some) like 9Tc, 56c 67c so we are getting immediate odds to call (assuming she doesnt have pocket 22s)

However, looking at stacks we'd be facing an all-in river so I folded turn. Thoughts?

Yatahay Network - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 483 BB
BB: 115.5 BB
UTG: 227.5 BB
Hero (MP): 100 BB
CO: 100 BB
BTN: 146.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♣ J♠

UTG raises to 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (12.5 BB, 4 players) 2♠ 4♣ 8♣
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets 6 BB, BTN raises to 20 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 14 BB

Turn: (52.5 BB, 2 players) T♠
Hero checks, BTN bets 25 BB, fold

BTN wins 50 BB

You should 3bet preflop. Flat calling with JJ is big mistake.

zuker said:

You should 3bet preflop. Flat calling with JJ is big mistake.

Click to expand...

I agree that it is at 2nl since many others will call along. What about moving up though? Many people recommend flat calling an utg raise with QQ

Here's another somewhat similar hand... can we just fold this flop? V's not clever enough to do single diamond bluffs, so that means his range here is 1/4 bluffs 3/4 2 pair or better (from my estimation.) V here is 20/19 with AF of 15 over 200 hands

Yatahay Network - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 483 BB
SB: 116 BB
BB: 134 BB
Hero (UTG): 100 BB
MP: 101 BB
CO: 146.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J:club: J:heart:

Hero raises to 3.5 BB, fold, fold, BTN calls 3.5 BB, fold, BB calls 2.5 BB

Flop: (11 BB, 3 players) 8:heart: 6:diamond: 9:diamond:
BB checks, Hero bets 5.5 BB, fold, BB raises to 16.5 BB, Hero calls 11 BB

Turn: (44 BB, 2 players) 3:spade:
BB bets 33 BB, Hero calls 33 BB

River: (110 BB, 2 players) 4:heart:
BB bets 81 BB and is all-in, Hero ???

teh_colonel_saigon said:

Hey,

V is 18/15 over 45 hands. I expected her range to be tight- small suited aces, suited cons +44, 88.

Should I call on the flop expecting V to give up turn? It is immediately profitable to call since I expect most combos betting to be bluffs here. On the turn I expect only a few combos to continue (J of clubs blocks some) like 9Tc, 56c 67c so we are getting immediate odds to call (assuming she doesnt have pocket 22s)

However, looking at stacks we'd be facing an all-in river so I folded turn. Thoughts?

Yatahay Network - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 483 BB
BB: 115.5 BB
UTG: 227.5 BB
Hero (MP): 100 BB
CO: 100 BB
BTN: 146.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♣ J♠

UTG raises to 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (12.5 BB, 4 players) 2♠ 4♣ 8♣
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets 6 BB, BTN raises to 20 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 14 BB

Turn: (52.5 BB, 2 players) T♠
Hero checks, BTN bets 25 BB, fold

BTN wins 50 BB

Click to expand...

Try to avoid the c-bet flop in spots like this one. We have our range capped for mid pocket pairs and some suited broadways that could be possibily cold calling versus UTG.
The point here will rely on who UTG player really is, because it is fine to be calling with JJ here but we can be 3-betting as well (consider that UTG can have a range of 15% hands, not only the top premium).
But it seems you had no information of UTG and neither over the BTN player.
You should not have c-bet OTF just because it is a 'lower flop', with cards under Jacks.
Would you do the same c-bet OTF, OOP, when the flop contains a Qx, Kx or Ax?
What are you trying to represent here, and do you expect to extract value from which worst hands?
This check-raise OTF hurts a lot, but we should be folding any pocket pair right now, because BTN/Villain polarized its range OTF by raising your c-bet: BTN bets a little more than the size of the pot, thus, commiting both players.
We are only calling this raise OTF if we do have a plan for the turn.
Particularly, I can't see any good turn for us that is not a Jx, what are we going to do when it comes another club, a Qx, Kx, Ax, when the board pairs, etc?
What is our overall plan for calling here, having information that when Villain polarizes it will probably continue insisting OTT and OTR?
Because it is very strange for us, when we do call this raise OTF, it comes a harmelss Tx OTT and we fold to c-bet: when/if we do call OTF we must either be calling turn to donk jam 100% of rivers, or simply check-jam OTT.
When Villain raises OTF it could have the flush draws and straight draws, but most of times, at 2 NLHE, players are simply holding 22, 44 and 88 and want to achieve the maximum value plus, protect their range for when it completes a draw OTT.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa