$2 NLHE 6-max: Flush vs all in

B

Bluebottle88

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pokerstars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.02/$0.05 - 6 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

UTG (Hero): $5.85 (117 bb)
MP: $5.35 (107 bb)
CO: $7.86 (157 bb)
BU: $6.54 (131 bb)
SB: $5.00 (100 bb)
BB: $5.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07) Hero is UTG with Q A
Hero raises to $0.15, 1 fold, CO 3-bets to $0.46, BTN calls $0.46, 2 players fold, Hero calls $0.31

Flop: ($1.45) 4 T A (3 players)
Hero bets $0.90, CO calls $0.90, BU folds

Turn: ($3.25) J (2 players)
Hero bets $1.80, CO raises to $6.50 (all-in), Hero calls $2.69 (all-in)

River: ($12.23) 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $12.23 (Rake: $0.51)

Showdown:
CO shows T T (a full house, Tens full of Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 54%, Flop: 69%, Turn: 20%, River: 100%)

UTG (Hero) shows Q A (a flush, Ace high)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 46%, Flop: 31%, Turn: 80%, River: 0%)

CO wins $11.72
 
F

fundiver199

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Preflop
Standard open and also standard call of 3-bet, when he is going relatively small like this. Maybe we can mix in a 4-bet from time to time, but definitely not folding AQs.

Flop
Semi-bluffing with draws can be great, but when we have top pair second kicker, we are never getting a better hand to fold, and we have a lot of showdown value already, so we don’t even need to bluff. We are also unlikely to get 3 streets of value, unless we improve, and there are very few turn cards, that are bad for us, when we have the flush draw. So I don’t see a lot of reason to get aggressive here. If we throw this donk bet in the 3-betters face, he is probably just going to fold hands like JJ-KK, which are way behind, and we win nothing extra. Check-calling is a better line in my opinion than this donk bet.

Turn
Given how we played the flop, I like to continue betting. Maybe we could consider some fancy check-raise, but I don’t see a lot of point in it. Just make the simple bet for value, and if he raise, we are of course very happy, since we have the nuts.

Result
Sucky result for us obviously, but we got it in ahead on the turn, and that is all, we can really do. The Villain also played well, so this was just a cooler situation for both players.
 
moulan7

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Preflop is a pretty standard situation and play from both of you. I never fold here AQs and no one else too I suppose.
I can't 4bet (even occasionally) here like fundiver suggests. (i don't have 4bets in my glossary xD) Although it could have been the winning action here. I guess he folds 1010 against a 4bet.

Btw I'm curious with what the BTN called here.. anyway..

On flop I 'm ready to play for stacks xD. I go for check/raise here hoping that someone will bet.
But since we have the button in the game too and the danger of giving a free card to 2 players, I'm ok with your lead although we push away hands like KK, QQ, JJ, and steal the opportunity from both CO and BTN to bluff.

Turn. Since you bet on flop, you bet again. A check could be a good play too, since you have the nuts and you represent fear giving him the opportunity to bluff.

As played is everything ok too. It's one of those hands where you gonna lose your stack no matter what. We put the money in good on turn but we lose on a decent holding.
Hmm I guess he could be a bit more skeptical here about his set. His all in move is somewhat marginal on that turn. But even if he just calls you, the 4 is coming on the river and we will have the same results... or you can find fold here? xD
 
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Sidetracked

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Preflop is fine.

Current thinking is that donking into the pf aggressor is never right. You've flopped the world, so check raising is one option, just check calling is another.

You turn the nuts, the money goes in, and....you lose.

Bummer. But you certainly didn't misplay the hand horribly, or anything.
 
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zhilipp

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I woul´d have played it differnet on the flop. I prefer the the preflop aggressor to lead and due to his re raise i think its on him. So check raising would be good probably and maybe the only slight chance to change the result of this hand but in the end I would have lost a lot too. Just a bad cooler.
 
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fast_frog

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You should not lead the flop because you have a capped range as AA, AK and AJ matter a lot here so you further handicap your checking range.

You also don't want to get the money in with this hand, it looks pretty but it's only going to be up against better when the money goes in so you waste it's potential to cooler opponents.
 
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fast_frog

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So check raising would be good probably and maybe the only slight chance to change the result of this hand but in the end I would have lost a lot too. Just a bad cooler.

I really disagree with this. c/rs only gets called by better and you often and up an underdog against sets/2pairs/AK when the money goes in.
 
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zhilipp

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I really disagree with this. c/rs only gets called by better and you often and up an underdog against sets/2pairs/AK when the money goes in.

But what is a better Hand on this flop? The only Thing that is a real Danger is a set. And even against a set you have lots of outs. We´d be happy to be called with the second nut flush draw.

And I don´t know if cooler might be the wrong word, but I think we would be happy to get a big pot with the nut flush on the turn. It´s unfortunate that the river makes him a full house.
 
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fast_frog

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But what is a better Hand on this flop? The only Thing that is a real Danger is a set. And even against a set you have lots of outs. We´d be happy to be called with the second nut flush draw.


It's not just how your hand looks, it's also about their ranges. You are up against much stronger ranges (even the cold caller can have AA,KK, AK and JJ) in a situation where the PFR is not going to cbet/call AT, or even cbet it at all.

A big thing is you hate getting shoved on the flop, you'll always be in a flip or way behind situation because KQs is not shoving so it will actually be very -EV
 
Aballinamion

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BTN player is a GIGANTIC Whale!

PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.02/$0.05 - 6 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

UTG (Hero): $5.85 (117 bb)
MP: $5.35 (107 bb)
CO: $7.86 (157 bb)
BU: $6.54 (131 bb)
SB: $5.00 (100 bb)
BB: $5.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07) Hero is UTG with Q A
Hero raises to $0.15, 1 fold, CO 3-bets to $0.46, BTN calls $0.46, 2 players fold, Hero calls $0.31

Flop: ($1.45) 4 T A (3 players)
Hero bets $0.90, CO calls $0.90, BU folds

Turn: ($3.25) J (2 players)
Hero bets $1.80, CO raises to $6.50 (all-in), Hero calls $2.69 (all-in)

River: ($12.23) 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $12.23 (Rake: $0.51)

Showdown:
CO shows T T (a full house, Tens full of Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 54%, Flop: 69%, Turn: 20%, River: 100%)

UTG (Hero) shows Q A (a flush, Ace high)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 46%, Flop: 31%, Turn: 80%, River: 0%)

CO wins $11.72

Hello there Bluebottle88, good evening. Thank you a lot for sharing your hand with us, very good hand, indeed!
This is a very hard situation, but I would like to say right off the bat, and don't get me wrong, please: we are not playing TWO PAIR, SETS, FLUSHES, FULL-HOUSES, etc!
We are playing our perceived range versus our perceived opponents range!
Having said that, with all of my candor and boriness, lemme jump into the lovely action

Note: This is 5 NLHE but you described as 2 NLHE, no problem, just an observation

The hard preflop spot.

AQs is a beautiful hand to open from EP or any position. 3x raise is fine, because we want to balance our range in the long run.
The real problem begins when BTN, slightly deep stacked 3-bets you for 3x (3 times the size you opened, so 46/15 = 3).
And the problem becomes even greater when SB decides to Cold Call out of position, probably "for odds", with a very capped range (all the pocket pairs and strong broadways)
Fold is out of our options here. We could be calling and 4-betting LIGHT or 4-betting for VALUE.
What will decide if it is a 4-bet light or value are the players involved in the hand: if BTN 3-bets a lot, it is okay to 4-bet light because AQs will be ahead of BTN's range. If the BTN 3-bets only the nuts, something like 4% 3-bet preflop, I guess the call will be better, but even so we will be dominated most of times for AK, AA, KK, and some other strong pairs such as QQ, JJ and TT.
You decided to call and see a flop, that's okay

The Monster Flop

Wow! You flopped a real good situation with TP2K plus Nut Flush Draw! Awesome.
I don't know if I like a donk bet in this flop in a high frequency. Because we have no bluffs here to balance our range! Remember, because BTN had made you a 3-bet preflop, BTN will have in its range a lot of combos of AA, KK, TT and we don't have them! IF we had AA and KK we would be 4-betting more often than calling right? :rolleyes: Turns the read very easy to spot, so the farther exploitation.
We have no pocket 4's here. We have no AT. The only hands that are donking out of position, 3-handed/3-bet pot could be TT and AA. But when you donk your top sets in a flop like this you will simply get thousands of folds.
I would be checking this flop more often than donking. Although, giving that this is 5 NLHE the donk is not the end of the world. :D
BTN calls your donk and SB folds. Let's take a turn:

The Turn is MARVELOUS!

Sorry to say but there is absolutely anything at all to do here, unless you think you can fold the nuts winning 90% of times, most of cases. This is one of the rarest cases ever, when we really have the nuts versus board configuration. (Sweet!)
Hands that could go all in here are missed straight draws, trying to bluff you out of the pot, straights of course, with KQ, sets of 44, TT, JJ, sets of Aces not so much because we block them a lot, and weird two pair, such as A4, AT, AJ, JT.

Don't feel bad because of idiots decisions!

Considering only Villain's decisions this is far away from optimal. Villain must be the REAL Fishy player at the micros!!!
Because Villain shoved the 5th nuts upon your face, with no blocker of spades!
So, when UTG opens and calls 3-bet out of position, UTG still will have some combos of AA, JJ and KQ.
Well, summarizing, shoving this turn only proves what we already debated and know here at the Forum: weak players are just playing THEIR HANDS, not a game with incomplete information.
Put a note in the BTN player because it is really fishy! Never feel bad because of your decision, you were completely dominating!
A player who decides to go all-in with a decent SET in the turn, when it completes a straight and flush versus UTG's range is a TOTAL WHALE.
If I was in BTN's shoes, I would sadly call this turn because a Set of T's is still very strong and I would fold ALL THE RIVERS that not improve. I would pray for UTG to check so I can check behind. (I would know that UTG is a decent player, in the first place, and RESPECT IT).
Now, If I were in UTG's shoes, and I double barrel turn and BTN calls and in the Turn double pairs, I would check to the player in position ,because there is a great chance of my flush nuts, not to be the best hand.
If BTN goes all in, it is hard, but it is a fold. IF BTN bets a decent size is a call.
We are not playing SETS, and going all-in dominated in the turn, having just 20% equity versus a EP's range.
Hang in there and respect your study and learning process! BTN is the real WHALE!
Well played!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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This is not a cooler, BTN is a WHALE!

Preflop
Standard open and also standard call of 3-bet, when he is going relatively small like this. Maybe we can mix in a 4-bet from time to time, but definitely not folding AQs.

Flop
Semi-bluffing with draws can be great, but when we have top pair second kicker, we are never getting a better hand to fold, and we have a lot of showdown value already, so we don’t even need to bluff. We are also unlikely to get 3 streets of value, unless we improve, and there are very few turn cards, that are bad for us, when we have the flush draw. So I don’t see a lot of reason to get aggressive here. If we throw this donk bet in the 3-betters face, he is probably just going to fold hands like JJ-KK, which are way behind, and we win nothing extra. Check-calling is a better line in my opinion than this donk bet.

Turn
Given how we played the flop, I like to continue betting. Maybe we could consider some fancy check-raise, but I don’t see a lot of point in it. Just make the simple bet for value, and if he raise, we are of course very happy, since we have the nuts.

Result
Sucky result for us obviously, but we got it in ahead on the turn, and that is all, we can really do. The Villain also played well, so this was just a cooler situation for both players.

Hi here fundiver199, with all due respect, this is never a cooler for both players!
BTN player assumed wrong that UTG could have TPTK, TP2K, Two Pair, and missed SD or FD!!!!
BTN player did not respect the opponent and made a very speculative move with a very strong value hand! (BTN bluffed a set of T's!!!).
A cooler is not a situation where we are already winning, or ahed and then Villain hits a better hand? BTN was losing here sometimes for AA and JJ already.
IT was dead against KQ and any two spades. Sorry man, this is never a cooler, BTN have just played its HAND:

"OMG! I have a SET!!! UTG will have ONLY TPTK and Two Pair, I am going all in here because UTG will never have flushes/straights and will pay me with its Two Pair or TPTK and then, and then I AM RICH!" (sarcastic point of view of BTN player)


Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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fundiver199

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BTN player did not respect the opponent and made a very speculative move with a very strong value hand! (BTN bluffed a set of T's!!!).


As Villain there is an argument for raising already on the flop, but as played I certainly think, the turn raise was good and for value. Sure Villain is behind to JJ, AA, a flush or a straight, but Hero does not have these hands very often. AA usually 4-bet, KQ does not donk lead the flop, unless it also has a flushdraw, and the only flushes, that are likely from preflop, are AK, AQ and KQ. More importantly Hero can also have a lot of AK, AQ, which is not a flush, and which will not fold to a jam. Especially those combos that have a club in them. Or Hero can have AJ, which is two pair, and will also not fold.
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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As Villain there is an argument for raising already on the flop, but as played I certainly think, the turn raise was good and for value. Sure Villain is behind to JJ, AA, a flush or a straight, but Hero does not have these hands very often. AA usually 4-bet, KQ does not donk lead the flop, unless it also has a flushdraw, and the only flushes, that are likely from preflop, are AK, AQ and KQ. More importantly Hero can also have a lot of AK, AQ, which is not a flush, and which will not fold to a jam. Especially those combos that have a club in them. Or Hero can have AJ, which is two pair, and will also not fold.

Perhaps, if we were playing SNG's and MTT's this line of thought is right. This is Cash!
Only real weak players are going stacks with TPTK, Two Pairs and Sets in a heavy connected board like this!
I am only shoving a SET versus UTG when the player is very, very DONKEY, AGGRO DONKEY, WHALE, etc.
UTG seems a decent player and it seems very much that BTN was just playing its HAND vs UTG's range. (BTN shoving all-in turn could only be VALUE if we consider that UTG is the real whale, and I don't believe Hero UTG is a Whale, period).

Hands that donk/lead this flop, out of position, 3-handed pot are only two pair and Sets. and TP+FD+SD. Even so, only donks would do it in a high frequency, because they have no notion on how to balance their ranges.
One very simple and provokative question: If BTN 3-bets preflop and not improve to a set or anything at all, comes an ace in the flop, BTN will continue paying here to try to bluff UTG's range on later streets? I guess not.

Decent Cash Players are not going for stacks with ANY MARGINAL hands. (versus average players).
Decent Cash Players usually donk/lead with VALUE more often than bluffs. (remember, when UTG leads flop there are two players to speak, and UTG is ready for a check-raise or a push when it does it).
When UTG donks flop it has all the combos of spades and the BTN has none.
When BTN raises turn for all in this board texture is never for value! This is a bluff/blocking bet that I would be more inclined to do it with weaker hands, such as TP+FD, TP+SD, Two Pair+SD or FD, anyways, with semi-bluffs with good potential for rivers.
A Set of T's has plenty of showdown value and most of times we are not bluffing these strong hands.
However, I respect your line of thought because I can see you are a far more experient player than me.
I can read in your comments that you are very solid and have a very well understanding of the game and I like your comments/analysis a lot. Please, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to start a level war here because we are just trying to analyse a hand.
But it seems a lot that you are putting tournament way of playing into the cash logic.
If I am playing a tournament I would do the same as BTN did, because in tournaments I know players are calling down way lighter, and I could get calls from TPTK, TP2K, Two Pair and sometimes even TP with no kicker.
Thank you very much for your attention and forgive me for my dry candor.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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Scenario analyser

I ran the Equilab's Scenario analyser for this specific situation.
I gave a decent range to UTG, considering that UTG has all the spades, since TdTh doesn't block any spade:

JJ+, AsKs, AsQs, KsQs, AsJs, AsTs, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, AdKs, AhKs, AsKd, AsKh, AsKc, AcKs, AdQs, AhQs, AsQd, AsQh, AsQc, AcQs (3.32%) Cold Call 3-bet/4-bet Range.

Yes, I am assuming that UTG is an average regular. An Average Regular will be more inclined to cold call 3-bet with the same range it could be 4-betting (balance).
Of course UTG would not 4-bet JJ and QQ in a high frequency, but the rest of the range is a 4-bet value and 4-bet bluff.

No one will arguee that in the flop, BTN is favorite by far. No one will debate that most of turns will be best for BTN than UTG's range.
If this is a bluff, we need to be right only 18% of times for our bluff to pass, and we have much more than that. Shoving the turn, is not value, is a bluff that need to pass 18% of times to be profitable.

It would be profitable if UTG folds! However we would lose VALUE from those hands that we are trying to extract: TPTK, TP2K, FD+SD, Two Pair and random air bluffs.
Is this correct? BTN puts 130 BB to win a pot of 234.4 BB with its bluff.
Many factors induce us to think that this is a natural breakeven spot. However, players at the micros and mid stakes are very unbalanced with their moves.
So, we are investing 130 BB to win a pot of 234.4 BB, and for the times we are wrong and UTG doesn't fold 80% of times or more versus our bluff (Set of T's), we have 9 outs for river. We don't want UTG to call here, because it is not profitable for our BLUFF.
Okay, absolute equity will work fine here, because I don't expect UTG to pay me with any worst hand, but, on the other hand, I expect a lot the contrary: the 20% of times UTG pays it will have only the hands that have us beat, giving us 9 outs for river, or 20% equity for this pot.
Translating, we are going to win this pot 2 times out of 8, considering ten times.

BTN Situation:

We lose 130 BB EIGHT TIMES! 130 BB x 8 = 1040 BB :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
We win 234.4 BB Two times.... 234.4 x 2 = 468.8 BB

Well, easy math, 468.8 BB - 1040 BB = -571.2 BB EV

UTG Situation:

UTG have to pay only 53 BB to a pot of 234.4 BB, and UTG has 80% equity.

When UTG loses it will be 53 BB x 2 = -106 BB
When UTG wins it will be 234.4 BB x 8 = 1875.2 :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

1875.2 - 106 = +1769.2 EV

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 

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Haze777s

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Preflop is fine.

Current thinking is that donking into the pf aggressor is never right. You've flopped the world, so check raising is one option, just check calling is another.

You turn the nuts, the money goes in, and....you lose.

Bummer. But you certainly didn't misplay the hand horribly, or anything.
If you do not show aggression, you will get into the cooler with an ACE
 
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gustav197poker

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I ran the Equilab's Scenario analyser for this specific situation.
I gave a decent range to UTG, considering that UTG has all the spades, since TdTh doesn't block any spade:

JJ+, AsKs, AsQs, KsQs, AsJs, AsTs, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, AdKs, AhKs, AsKd, AsKh, AsKc, AcKs, AdQs, AhQs, AsQd, AsQh, AsQc, AcQs (3.32%) Cold Call 3-bet/4-bet Range.

Yes, I am assuming that UTG is an average regular. An Average Regular will be more inclined to cold call 3-bet with the same range it could be 4-betting (balance).
Of course UTG would not 4-bet JJ and QQ in a high frequency, but the rest of the range is a 4-bet value and 4-bet bluff.

No one will arguee that in the flop, BTN is favorite by far. No one will debate that most of turns will be best for BTN than UTG's range.
If this is a bluff, we need to be right only 18% of times for our bluff to pass, and we have much more than that. Shoving the turn, is not value, is a bluff that need to pass 18% of times to be profitable.

It would be profitable if UTG folds! However we would lose VALUE from those hands that we are trying to extract: TPTK, TP2K, FD+SD, Two Pair and random air bluffs.
Is this correct? BTN puts 130 BB to win a pot of 234.4 BB with its bluff.
Many factors induce us to think that this is a natural breakeven spot. However, players at the micros and mid stakes are very unbalanced with their moves.
So, we are investing 130 BB to win a pot of 234.4 BB, and for the times we are wrong and UTG doesn't fold 80% of times or more versus our bluff (Set of T's), we have 9 outs for river. We don't want UTG to call here, because it is not profitable for our BLUFF.
Okay, absolute equity will work fine here, because I don't expect UTG to pay me with any worst hand, but, on the other hand, I expect a lot the contrary: the 20% of times UTG pays it will have only the hands that have us beat, giving us 9 outs for river, or 20% equity for this pot.
Translating, we are going to win this pot 2 times out of 8, considering ten times.

BTN Situation:

We lose 130 BB EIGHT TIMES! 130 BB x 8 = 1040 BB :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
We win 234.4 BB Two times.... 234.4 x 2 = 468.8 BB

Well, easy math, 468.8 BB - 1040 BB = -571.2 BB EV

UTG Situation:

UTG have to pay only 53 BB to a pot of 234.4 BB, and UTG has 80% equity.

When UTG loses it will be 53 BB x 2 = -106 BB
When UTG wins it will be 234.4 BB x 8 = 1875.2 :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

1875.2 - 106 = +1769.2 EV

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa



Interesting conclusion Thanks Aballinamion for your analysis. You are very generous. But can this balance be deduced from the structure of this board? I understand that yes, given the sequence of the hand. But out of position, we can be below a range that dominates our odds. In that case, we can be restricted up to 50%. That is why I suppose that the decision to withdraw is clearly profitable in the long term.
 
TheDude6622

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Preflop
Standard open and also standard call of 3-bet, when he is going relatively small like this. Maybe we can mix in a 4-bet from time to time, but definitely not folding AQs.

Flop
Semi-bluffing with draws can be great, but when we have top pair second kicker, we are never getting a better hand to fold, and we have a lot of showdown value already, so we don’t even need to bluff. We are also unlikely to get 3 streets of value, unless we improve, and there are very few turn cards, that are bad for us, when we have the flush draw. So I don’t see a lot of reason to get aggressive here. If we throw this donk bet in the 3-betters face, he is probably just going to fold hands like JJ-KK, which are way behind, and we win nothing extra. Check-calling is a better line in my opinion than this donk bet.

Turn
Given how we played the flop, I like to continue betting. Maybe we could consider some fancy check-raise, but I don’t see a lot of point in it. Just make the simple bet for value, and if he raise, we are of course very happy, since we have the nuts.

Result
Sucky result for us obviously, but we got it in ahead on the turn, and that is all, we can really do. The Villain also played well, so this was just a cooler situation for both players.

Totally agree with this analysis. The villain played extremely well and got max value on their hand by getting lucky, knowing we have at least a decent flush in this spot. Just have to say nice hand and move on to the next one.
 
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fundiver199

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Just a few quick final points mostly to Aballinamion:

1) UTG is not supposed to donk lead anything in a 3-bet pot on a A high board. The board strongly favour the 3-betters range, and then its not a good strategy to have a donking range. So as CO, when I face this donk bet, it tells me, that UTG is not a particularly good player, and then it is reasonable to assume, that UTG will also stack off pretty wide. I will not assume, that someone is bad enough (no offence meant to original poster) to donk lead but good enough to get away from top pair with a gutshot.

2) CO can certainly not fold a set on the turn, just because UTG could now have a straight or flush. He has to at least call, and then he can make a decision, if he brick and face a jam on the river. In this case he would have filled up, and UTG can hardly check-fold either, when he only lose to a boat. So the money would have gone in regardless, and this is why, the hand is just a standard cooler.
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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Final thoughts

Just a few quick final points mostly to Aballinamion:

1) UTG is not supposed to donk lead anything in a 3-bet pot on a A high board. The board strongly favour the 3-betters range, and then its not a good strategy to have a donking range. So as CO, when I face this donk bet, it tells me, that UTG is not a particularly good player, and then it is reasonable to assume, that UTG will also stack off pretty wide. I will not assume, that someone is bad enough (no offence meant to original poster) to donk lead but good enough to get away from top pair with a gutshot.

2) CO can certainly not fold a set on the turn, just because UTG could now have a straight or flush. He has to at least call, and then he can make a decision, if he brick and face a jam on the river. In this case he would have filled up, and UTG can hardly check-fold either, when he only lose to a boat. So the money would have gone in regardless, and this is why, the hand is just a standard cooler.

Hi there fundiver199, thank you for your patience. To end this long conversation, where I learned very much, I would say that picturing a player as a "fish", just because of a donk bet is too much assumption.
I agree that for the UTG player the check would work fine in a higher frequency (80% check - 20% donk), however I don't hate the donkey

I also agree that the player in position (I don't know if BTN or CO, anyways) should be just calling with its value hand, not jamming all in. I understand the rational behind the player in position mind, but it is very superficial. Follows like this:

BTN thinking about UTG

A) Okay, I made a 3-bet preflop and UTG called 3-handed. So it doesn't have a very scary range (AA, KK and AKs).

B) UTG donks flop 3-handed trying to keep me out of the pot when I have the second nuts (Set of T's). I am gonna call and slow this flop, and if UTG insists I am jamming many rivers, since UTG could only be bluffing here. Maybe I should've raised flop for protection, because although my second nuts is way too strong that are some turns that will not be good for my range, but UTG's range. Anyway, I am going to slow play my Set here by calling.

C) The turns completes a flush and a straight. Now UTG will continue bluffing (since it called 3-bet oop 3-handed and donks flop...) with any spade, any Qx, any TPTK or even Two Pair: UTG bet is trying to represent the flush but UTG will have no flush here in the turn, so it is all-in.

IMO, BTN should've raised his set in the flop for protection, because when the action happened, SB hasn't spoke yet. By calling in the flop, BTN is inducing SB to call with all of its equity by a fair price. By raising BTN can protect its value hand, blocks SB and get almost a certain call from UTG.
I understand your way of thinking, but I believe is way to exploitative and aggressive.
I will say no more about this hand, thank you very much again for your attention and care.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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fundiver199

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Just for the record I did not say, that OP is a fish or played this hand as a fish. But the donk bet is not the best strategy, and if I see someone do something, which is not all that good, then I am not going to assume, they are an extremely good player.

We need to remember also, that this is 2NL, and people, who play 2NL, are mostly beginners. They might be serious players or “regulars”, but they are still beginners. We are also playing for the price of nothing, so you will see more light stacking off at 2NL, than you do even at 10NL.

As for the hand I think, Hero and Villain both made some decisions, that were probably not optimal. As Hero / UTG I would check-call flop and check-raise turn. As Villain / CO I would raise flop, check back turn and jam river. But none of the decisions were like really bad, and the EVs were close in each case. This is why, I say, the hand is mostly a cooler.
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

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OP, why you donk bet with capped range? You want to get stacked by set?
 
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