$2 NLHE 6-max: Facing turn shove with TPTK

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Papier24

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 44/22/1

No Limit Hold'em $0,01/$0,02
PokerStars
6 players


Stacks:
UTG - Hero (
$2,00)
MP - MP (
$2,99)
CO - CO (
$2,00)
BTN - BTN (
$2,15)
SB - SB (
$1,98)
BB - BB (
$2,00)

Preflop: (
$0,03, 6 players) Hero is UTG with K♦ A♥
Hero raises to $0,05, MP calls $0,05, 4 folds

Flop:
3♠ 9♦ K♥ ($0,13, 2 players - MP: $2,94, Hero: $1,95)
Hero bets $0,07, MP calls $0,07

Turn:
6♥ ($0,27, 2 players - MP: $2,87, Hero: $1,88)
Hero bets $0,17, MP raises to $2,87 (all-in)

Hero ?

Just an ugly spot. Does he shove often enough with just a King to justify a call ? I only played 16 hands with this player, so I really don't have much information about the player.

 
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Clysse

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Given the preflop action, the only hands that you are concerned about are pocket 3s and pocket 9s. Slowplaying pocket aces or kings is certainly possible but I think in middle position, he would almost certainly be raising with those hands. The other hands I would put in his range at this stage would be some sort of broadway draw like KQs or QJh/ J10h. Although most players wouldnt shove in those spots. So unless you've seen the guy limp in a bunch of times with small pocket pairs, i would probably elect to call this. I think there are enough hands in his range to make this a profitable call, because ive seen people jam in these spots with any Kx at these stakes. But, i should also add that I only play 2NL and 5NL so i'm pretty weak lol
 
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Papier24

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The other hands I would put in his range at this stage would be some sort of broadway draw like KQs or QJh/ J10h. Although most players wouldnt shove in those spots. So unless you've seen the guy limp in a bunch of times with small pocket pairs, i would probably elect to call this. I think there are enough hands in his range to make this a profitable call, because ive seen people jam in these spots with any Kx at these stakes. But, i should also add that I only play 2NL and 5NL so i'm pretty weak lol
I don't know if you can put hands like QJh/JTh in his range. He's shoving a 2,87$ stack into a 0,44$ pot. This is just not a profitable bluff since he's risking a decent stack for a relatively small pot. People don't risk their whole stack for such a small reward.
But I have seen quite a few players on 2NL shoving with just top pair in similar situations. I think the decision is very close here between calling and folding. Thanks for the input anyway
 
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Clysse

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I don't know if you can put hands like QJh/JTh in his range. He's shoving a 2,87$ stack into a 0,44$ pot. This is just not a profitable bluff since he's risking a decent stack for a relatively small pot.
I have seen quite a few players on 2NL shoving with just top pair in similar situations. I think the decision is very close here between calling and folding.

ya, i totally agree that those types of hands are far less likely. I personally would raise it up there with those types of hands but definitely not shove. I just feel like the looser portion of players at these stakes would believe that to be a profitable bluff, in order to fold out some kind of kx.
 
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Clysse

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ya, i totally agree that those types of hands are far less likely. I personally would raise it up there with those types of hands but definitely not shove. I just feel like the looser portion of players at these stakes would believe that to be a profitable bluff, in order to fold out some kind of kx.

srry I mixed up the action with another hand I was looking at. Since u were UTG and barreled on two streets I would definitely just call there. Your probably right that those hands are not as likely, but i still think its possible. From his perspective, with QJ of hearts, he limps preflop to a UTG raiser. on the flop, a UTG raiser would Cbet with anything like A10-AQ a lot of the time, so with a straight draw and back door flush, he could float. The jam on the turn makes me seriously doubt this is the case, but i dont think i would completely eliminate it from his range
 
liuouhgkres

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too big of a raise, I would just fold here. If you want to call though, make sure to call without heart suit. So your hand especially bad for call, because you block ton of flush draws there.
 
TheBigFinn

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Before we get to the turn you should consider you preflop beat. $0.05 is too small. You have not forced Villain to define her hand. You have to assign her a pretty large range. What hand just calls the K93 rainbow flop and then pushes the K963 two heart turn board? Your under bet preflop followed by a half pot flop bet doesn't limit Villain much. She likely dumps the bottom half of her hands on the flop but call the other half.

So given a 5% calling range 33, 99, 66 for sure and you are losing big to them, but there are only 12 combos and why wouldn't she wait till the turn? Is she now afraid of the heart? What other hands? A3,A9, QJ, JT, 98, 87, 65 of hearts are good candidates for the river bomb (as well as any other random two heart she called badly with. These are very precise hands with only one combo each. call it another 12 combos.

I generally don't like calling unknown players oversizes beat in penny games, but it looks like a random heart or straight draw more than trips. I would suck it up and call and try and remember to open bigger next time.
 
EllinLucky

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I would fold. There are 2 pairs or a set. Or slowplay AA.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Fold.

Raise bigger pre. Bet bigger on the flop. Pre should be $0.07-0.09 IMO. So, if we see flop pot is $0.15, bet like $0.11 or $0.12 at it.

As played, bet flop $0.10.


However, this guy improved somehow. Probably some goofy 2p or set here. I think it's very unlikely we have the best hand here on the turn.
 
Sil3ntness

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2.5x-3x raise seems fine preflop. Against exploitative stations I would bet bigger, but if there are decent 2 NL players I would balance out with your exact sizing. So sizing looks fine to me on the flop. On the turn though, I feel you need to be betting bigger due to potential straight draws and heart flush draws. You would be betting bigger here with both your strong top pair/2 pr+ hands and your semi bluffs. On the turn after betting it is a fold. Stack to pot ratio is way too high to be paying off a unknown player that could potentially have set of 3s, 9s, 6s etc.
 
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Papier24

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Why is 0.05$ too small ? In higher stakes many online players even min raise preflop. 0.07-0.09 is way too much IMO. It's just way too expensive too steal with 0.09$ and I don't think villains range changes if I bet 0.06 instead of 0.05 sincd he seems to be a fish anyway. So you could argue I should bet more for value preflop with my AK but I want to choose one standard opening size and stick to it because it's too difficult too balance out different opening sizes.
I think my bet size on the flop is pretty good too since on such a monotone board is suggested.

But I agree with you saying that I should fold. As mentioned the SPR is just too high to take such a big risk without enough information about villain. But there are still enough people on 2NL who are doing crazy things so that's why I called after tanking for a while.
He showed 96o.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Why is 0.05$ too small ? In higher stakes many online players even min raise preflop. 0.07-0.09 is way too much IMO. It's just way too expensive too steal with 0.09$ and I don't think villains range changes if I bet 0.06 instead of 0.05 sincd he seems to be a fish anyway. So you could argue I should bet more for value preflop with my AK but I want to choose one standard opening size and stick to it because it's too difficult too balance out different opening sizes.
I think my bet size on the flop is pretty good too since on such a monotone board is suggested.

But I agree with you saying that I should fold. As mentioned the SPR is just too high to take such a big risk without enough information about villain. But there are still enough people on 2NL who are doing crazy things so that's why I called after tanking for a while.
He showed 96o.


This isn't higher stakes. We aren't trying to steal, we trying to range f*** people who call with dominated hands. Everyone sucks at $2 NL, and we can raise much larger and still get calls.
 
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Clysse

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What do you mean you cant steal in 2NL? If you are playing on the biggest sites, id say at least 30-40% of players understand how pre-flop strategy works. So after about 50 hands you can get a pretty good understanding of their preflop range and steal pretty profitably. This is where a big portion of my button profit comes from when i have like a 10/8 nit to my left
 
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Papier24

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This isn't higher stakes. We aren't trying to steal, we trying to range f*** people who call with dominated hands. Everyone sucks at $2 NL, and we can raise much larger and still get calls.
So yeah, I totally get your point. There are alot of fishy players that just call you anyway with too many hands preflop. But still most players at 2NL are at least not complete idiots.

What do you mean you cant steal in 2NL? If you are playing on the biggest sites, id say at least 30-40% of players understand how pre-flop strategy works. So after about 50 hands you can get a pretty good understanding of their preflop range and steal pretty profitably. This is where a big portion of my button profit comes from when i have like a 10/8 nit to my left
When did I say you can't steal in 2NL ? :confused: I have just said that 0.05$ as an open bet is as effective to steal the blinds as a 0.06$ but you're getting a cheaper price. When I use sth. like 0.07--0-09 as an open bet size I don't necessarily get more folds but I'm risking alot more to steal. When I use different open bet sizes it will get pretty difficult to balance my range. I mean some fishy players won't recognize if I bet bigger preflop with my strong value hands but as you said there's still enough players at 2NL who at least have some knowledge.
 
c9h13no3

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How is this thread getting so much discussion?

Bet more preflop, fold the turn when the fish Balugas the shit out of you.
 
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Papier24

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How is this thread getting so much discussion?

Bet more preflop, fold the turn when the fish Balugas the shit out of you.

Because noone could explain me properly why 0.05$ is such a small opening size when even doug polk min raises at 2NL(!) in his bankroll challenge. I think eveything between 2.5-3bb is totally standard. But this probably too much discussion for one simple hand.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Because noone could explain me properly why 0.05$ is such a small opening size when even doug polk min raises at 2NL(!) in his bankroll challenge. I think eveything between 2.5-3bb is totally standard. But this probably too much discussion for one simple hand.


You are not Doug Polk. Obviously. You know this.



Maybe his objective is to play a ton of hands, and play postflop? I dunno.


They'll call more than a nickel with dominated hands. And you did mention stealing? Don't you want action with big slick? I would. I want some whale calling me with K-9o, and going broke on king high flop.


Take it or leave it, they're just suggestions. I actually play $2 NL once in a while. I open 7c if I am first in, and add 1 BB for every limper. They still call. I actually think raising tilts people cause they can't limp terrible hands and play bingo.
 
c9h13no3

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Because noone could explain me properly why 0.05$ is such a small opening size
Because our biggest edge is our preflop range is tighter than theirs, they will call 8c as often as 5c, and we like money.
 
Alucard

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Because noone could explain me properly why 0.05$ is such a small opening size when even doug polk min raises at 2NL(!) in his bankroll challenge. I think eveything between 2.5-3bb is totally standard. But this probably too much discussion for one simple hand.

I haven't noticed this tbh when he was doing his BR challenge. Thanks for pointing it out.
But in my personal experience 2.5x is pretty damn weak at 2NL. Also you are missing a ton of value on later streets.
A half a blind could be a 10-15 blind difference on the river. SO bet bigger to gain more value easily & make the V pay a lot more to take a look at another card.
My standard open at 2NL is 3X. And definitely bet bigger on flop
 
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On a related note, in my opinion the value of fixed raise sizes pre-flop is overrated at the micros.

If you've got one or more players ahead of you with VPIPs over 30, and stacks are medium or deep, raise big with premium hands. They may or may not notice, but even if they do notice they often call anyway.

I have no numbers to back this up, and many winning players will disagree. All I can say is give it a try. And don't overreact to the fact that you'll get a few more folds. The idea is that you'll win more when you succeed.
 
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PKRNRS

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$2 NLHE 6-max: Facing turn shove with TPTK

Definitely smells like a set mining situation or even two pair. A big shove like that with a dry broad is probably a bluff. I don't want to call with just a pair. He's trying to shut you down and take a small pot with his small hand. You did put in 25% of your stack but is it worth the rest. Maybe so to find out he is only holding nothing. I wouldn't always fold here either.
 
Beanfacekilla

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On a related note, in my opinion the value of fixed raise sizes pre-flop is overrated at the micros.

If you've got one or more players ahead of you with VPIPs over 30, and stacks are medium or deep, raise big with premium hands. They may or may not notice, but even if they do notice they often call anyway.

I have no numbers to back this up, and many winning players will disagree. All I can say is give it a try. And don't overreact to the fact that you'll get a few more folds. The idea is that you'll win more when you succeed.



I agree with this too. We adjust opens based on opponent tendencies. Same thing as live. I open 10x sometimes live, first in, they still call with trouble hands.
 
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Any open size 2.5 to 4bb is fine imo in 6max. That said utg opening 4bb automatically raises my over values TK, OP flag, old school student and new to poker. Opening 2.5 opens my 3bet range a bit, because also weak players do this, but decent 2.5 openers know this. My opinion is copied from the teachings of the masters I trust, they say it doesn't matter much. Changing open size automatically balances itself by changing ranges (my perception). But if we have huge fish calling all the time why not to raise more, up to 5bb at least.
 
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Omahahahaha

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Looks like a fold without a read that villain is a maniac.
 
TheBigFinn

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Not enough information to tell. In general TPTK is not enough to call a turn re-raise shove in a penny game, IMHO, but this is a really odd over bet. Like you wrote, ugly. I fold, but I'm an old man.
 
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