$2 NLHE 6-max: Conteplating folding KK pre in a 5bet pot pre

naruto_miu

naruto_miu

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Total posts
12,123
Awards
5
Chips
1
I can't really tell you much at all about the player (except for the fact he's not done this at all)..

Also loves 3betting against me (and acouple of times I thought about stacking pre with hands such as AK, but I really couldn't do it, so I flatted in position and folded to his/her CBet)...

So yea this player did get under my skin, but this now just seems so strong, that I'm not really even thinking they could have QQ, so it's only AA right? I mean it's the only hand correct?

My question here for this hand is besides the obvious choice of either Jam or fold I'm facing, could my table image not come into consideration here and this player might think I'm just a spazzing with say AK/AQs/<QQ?

Is this ever a fold at this limit?


poker stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1987610
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $2.37 - VPIP: 19, PFR: 16, 3B: 15, AF: 5.0, Hands: 58
BB: $4.53 - VPIP: 35, PFR: 20, 3B: 13, AF: 2.0, Hands: 54
UTG: $5.09 - VPIP: 33, PFR: 33, 3B: 0, AF: Infinity, Hands: 6
Hero (MP): $6.30 - VPIP: 25, PFR: 14, 3B: 4, AF: 1.4, Hands: 3011
CO: $0.84 - VPIP: 27, PFR: 7, 3B: 0, AF: 0.6, Hands: 45
BTN: $1.47 - VPIP: 10, PFR: 9, 3B: 10, AF: 3.0, Hands: 92

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP with K :club: K :heart:
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.06, SB calls $0.05, BB raises to $0.22, Hero raises to $0.80, 2 folds, BB raises to $2.52, Hero?
 
Seraphim

Seraphim

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 21, 2012
Total posts
514
Chips
0
Well this has nothing to do with the hand but you should close your vpip/pfr ratio.
As far as the hand goes I have absolutly no problem jamming. I dont think I'm ever folding to this player. I would not put JJ/QQ/AK/ out of his range. Pretty sure he's doing this with QQ alot but I'm also not a very good player so we will see what other people have to say
 
pocketehs

pocketehs

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Total posts
1,255
Chips
0
I'll take a shot at this one first...I think b/c ESS is like 250 bb's were not that pumped about getting KK in pre vs a Villain whose range is as narrow as you say. If you're that worried about AA here I would probs make the 4-bet like 2.5x to .55 so that if he 5-bets we could still get away easier cuz stacks are super deep.

As for your actual question, I don't see how we can put the 35/20 villain on just AA. I think it is likely that he could have like AK or JJ/QQ here as well espec. considering previous hands. Im def getting this in tho.
 
B

bosston21

Rising Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Total posts
24
Chips
0
In that hand and those stake I am shoving every time in a 5 bet pot. The people in those stakes are shoving with very wide ranges. Never Folding
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Total posts
12,123
Awards
5
Chips
1
I'll take a shot at this one first...I think b/c ESS is like 250 bb's were not that pumped about getting KK in pre vs a Villain whose range is as narrow as you say. If you're that worried about AA here I would probs make the 4-bet like 2.5x to .55 so that if he 5-bets we could still get away easier cuz stacks are super deep.

As for your actual question, I don't see how we can put the 35/20 villain on just AA. I think it is likely that he could have like AK or JJ/QQ here as well espec. considering previous hands. Im def getting this in tho.


Here's the thing right, I 4bet big pre because I actually wanted to GII pre, but when I seen the 5bet and the size of the 5bet actually made me sick+the fact that usually they only flatted with <JJ and never actually got out of line in a 3bet pot, so I was really confused/sick to my stomach in the hand...

Another thing to look at is the fact that they didn't open 5bet jam they 5bet smallish RR on me...That is the really strong line I'm worried about, usually players with QQ/KK type hands are eager to GII pre as apposed to get fancy with it, but this looked so fancy that I just feel only AA does such things, am I wrong (Is my thinking out of line here)?
 
The Messiah

The Messiah

Visionary
Platinum Level
Joined
Mar 10, 2012
Total posts
888
Chips
0
Contemplating and doing are too completely different things, you obv got it in pre and he ended up having AA, big deal, you cant fold despite being deep.... Its just a cooler.

Your hand sample is far too small to make any big decisions about villain and folding here is borderline criminal on such a sample.
He can also have KK,QQ,AK or making a spaz move so just GII.

On a side note, whats with your gap between your vpip/pfr, its far too big...?
Also you need to 3 bet more as your obv only 3 betting your premiums, right?
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Total posts
12,123
Awards
5
Chips
1
Contemplating and doing are too completely different things, you obv got it in pre and he ended up having AA, big deal, you cant fold despite being deep.... Its just a cooler.

Your hand sample is far too small to make any big decisions about villain and folding here is borderline criminal on such a sample.
He can also have KK,QQ,AK or making a spaz move so just GII.

On a side note, whats with your gap between your vpip/pfr, its far too big...?
Also you need to 3 bet more as your obv only 3 betting your premiums, right?


Yeah I only 3bet really premo hands and nothing less
 
The Messiah

The Messiah

Visionary
Platinum Level
Joined
Mar 10, 2012
Total posts
888
Chips
0
Yeah I only 3bet really premo hands and nothing less

Mmm, you should really be 3 betting villains with a high fold/3bet, LDO..
But there are other times/situations were it is good to do so aswell, also having an agg pre game will allow for your premium hands to get paid off a higher % of the time.
Which is all good of course, if you want il sweat you some time this week if your free, im sure a quick hour or two will help with your game a lot.
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Total posts
12,123
Awards
5
Chips
1
Ok Messiah here's the actual reason I had asked the question in the first place...It's all about making +EV decisions correct (in the long term speaking)...

Well since it's all about making +EV decisions (in the long run, I'm making -EV choices by shoving this hand, when in all fairness, everything is telling me to fold correct)? The only real regret I have in the entire hand is (I really felt his range was 1 or 2 hands, and my gut instinct was telling me I'm wrong and it's AA), my mind on the other hand was telling me "nah it's QQ+AKs, more or less wishful thinking"..

So it's these choices that really upset me because I'm making the -EV choice in it, and than I either "laugh at myself, for thinking I knew it and I just couldn't bring myself to fold it, or something down those lines"...I hope you understand what I'm trying to say...I really do thank you for the offer also (and I'll be in touch with you when you and I have free time)...



Poker Stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1987729
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $2.37 - VPIP: 19, PFR: 16, 3B: 15, AF: 5.0, Hands: 58
BB: $4.53 - VPIP: 29, PFR: 14, 3B: 8, AF: 1.2, Hands: 84
UTG: $5.09 - VPIP: 33, PFR: 33, 3B: 0, AF: Infinity, Hands: 6
Hero (MP): $6.30 - VPIP: 25, PFR: 14, 3B: 3, AF: 1.5, Hands: 4026
CO: $0.84 - VPIP: 27, PFR: 7, 3B: 0, AF: 0.6, Hands: 45
BTN: $1.47 - VPIP: 10, PFR: 9, 3B: 10, AF: 3.0, Hands: 92

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP with K :club: K :heart:
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.06, SB calls $0.05, BB raises to $0.22, Hero raises to $0.80, 2 folds, BB raises to $2.52, Hero raises to $6.30, BB calls $2.01 all in

Flop: ($9.18) 7 :club: 2 :diamond: 5 :diamond: (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: ($9.18) K :diamond: (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($9.18) 2 :spade: (2 players - 1 is all in)


Here's the rest of the hand, also you stated it's a cooler, correct? Well is it really a cooler thinking (Like 65% of the time I'm behind in this situation and still shoving)? I don't know if I can really consider that a cooler, now it's a cooler If say we both GII on the flop of KKA/AAK/KA2, than sure, but pre...I don't know really
 
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 22, 2012
Total posts
2,683
Chips
0
Id make a smaller 4 bet, like 50c. When you are this deep and in position from time to time it may be worth flatting 3 bets from aggro players that have polarised ranges. But thats not a criticism of this hand. Maybe just avoid trying to get 200bb in pre without aces.
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Total posts
2,490
Chips
0
lots of people playing micros insta get into ego battles, and theyre horrified of folding and being shown a bluff/being outplayed when they hve the best hand. (bad players always think youre bluffing have you noticed)

it very often happens that he just thinks that your 4b is you getting sick of him 3bing you. i dont think this guys range is nearly as narrow as you make it out to be. if it was a regular 2NL nit id probs fold it 250bb deep, but never vs this guy
 
J

Jonny03UK

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Total posts
116
Chips
0
I'm curious, what was the villain holding? You said you showed the rest of the hand but didn't show the villain's cards and outcome?

Personally, from playing around 21k hands at these stakes myself, it's these types of players you want to be getting KK AI with. More often than not, they're 3/4betting with worse. I've come across plenty with similar stats jamming with JJ. 54 hands isn't a great sample but he's clearly a lot looser than the average "shark".
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Total posts
12,123
Awards
5
Chips
1
I'm curious, what was the villain holding? You said you showed the rest of the hand but didn't show the villain's cards and outcome?

Personally, from playing around 21k hands at these stakes myself, it's these types of players you want to be getting KK AI with. More often than not, they're 3/4betting with worse. I've come across plenty with similar stats jamming with JJ. 54 hands isn't a great sample but he's clearly a lot looser than the average "shark".


My apologies I thought it had showed:eek: (He/She had the bullets)
 
forsakenone

forsakenone

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Total posts
1,385
Chips
0
this is a snap call, no doubt, come on.
 
Folding in Poker
Top