$2 NLHE 6-max: BTM set gets 3bet by a passive player

naruto_miu

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This is one of those spots your damn'd if you do and your damn'd if you don't...This player is a drooler (yes, stats indicate this as much ok)...Yet this player is also passive correct? So am I ever really gonna be good? Since all game this player never once got out of line, and I kept abusing him/her (I seriously mean abusing)...

Since this player actually 3bet on the flop, and tbh (they usually just flatted post flop raises, and folded to double barrels), or they check called turn bets, but never really 3bet me without the nuts (or close to the nuts)...Can I safely assume I'm beat here and just fold?
Am I being retarded by worrying about a higher set when I have a set+worrying about the flush? What should be the correct line to take in this case



poker stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1987827
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BB: $1.30 - VPIP: 41, PFR: 24, 3B: 11, AF: 3.5, hands: 74
UTG: $2.00 - VPIP: 29, PFR: 17, 3B: 0, AF: 1.0, Hands: 35
Hero (MP): $4.30 - VPIP: 25, PFR: 15, 3B: 4, AF: 1.5, Hands: 4914
CO: $4.08 - VPIP: 14, PFR: 11, 3B: 0, AF: 2.2, Hands: 95
BTN: $4.46 - VPIP: 17, PFR: 11, 3B: 6, AF: 3.1, Hands: 269
SB: $4.17 - VPIP: 32, PFR: 3, 3B: 2, AF: 0.9, Hands: 411

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP with 3 :diamond: 3 :club:
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.06, SB calls $0.05, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.24) 6 :diamond: 3 :heart: K :heart: (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.12, Hero raises to $0.34, BTN folds, SB raises to $0.92, BB folds, Hero?
 
MadMaddie

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Am I being retarded by worrying about a higher set when I have a set+worrying about the flush?

I would not worry too much. I am only a rookie but I have been playing some cash tables but only 2cent Big Blind ones. I would never think about folding here.
Why are you worried about a flush? You lost me on that one?
Even though you said this player does not raise much on the flop don't you think a King could also be in their hand? Wouldn't a player like this only just call preflop with a hand like AK instead of re-raising it?
I don't know what is the best play to make but I know I would just raise allin here. After they make a raise this big I can't see them folding to a shove and a raise smaller than allin wouldn't that be kind of super strong looking? I don't know? I would just go allin. If the player has a bigger set oh well.


Hmm. Why do they check raise here if they just have a King? Maybe they think you have a flush draw?
So what did you do?
 
duggs

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a 40/3 is never ever raising a flush draw. KK/AA 3bet pre and AK doesnt 3bet flop. so its like 66 63 K6 imo, and even then 63 K6 maybe wont 3bet flop.
 
The Messiah

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is this literally 66 or are hands like 63 K6 K3 possible?

Can you eplain why?

What duggs just said below, and because were 200bb+, meaning were not pot committed whatsoever, for the amount of times that this type of villain will have 66(despite being a tiny range), outweights the chances of bottom set being good.

Even if villain does have a massive combo draw hand like 45hh(which is the only hand I would add to duggs list of possibilities) has great equity against us, I just think we can find a better spot to get our 200bb stack in with better equity, especially at this level.

This is a spot were we are either racing against a massive combo draw or drawing virtually dead(66), I dont think a villain of this type plays any hand any other way imo. Dont mind calling it a cooler or w/e when were 100bb deep but being 200bb we have to let it go.
 
mrmonkey

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idk, I'm thinking TPGK+ might take this line depending on the dynamic you have with villain, and if you are aggrotard in villain's eyes. At these stakes, I wouldn't put an overconfident line like this past TPGK vs. a drooler who has been getting abused. Drooler's generally don't take stack sizes into account when doing things like this either, so I think this opens the range up to something where I'm pretty comfortable getting it in with bottom set.

Passive or not, K6s, K3s, 63 are all as equally in villain's chkraising range imo (moreso than 4h5h or Ah6h)... so even if we're not confident that TPGK+ is in villain's range I think we're OK to stack off here. I just can't see narrowing villain's range here to 66 and only 66 so that we are folding third nuts.
 
The Messiah

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idk, I'm thinking TPGK+ might take this line depending on the dynamic you have with villain, and if you are aggrotard in villain's eyes. At these stakes, I wouldn't put an overconfident line like this past TPGK vs. a drooler who has been getting abused. Drooler's generally don't take stack sizes into account when doing things like this either, so I think this opens the range up to something where I'm pretty comfortable getting it in with bottom set.

Passive or not, K6s, K3s, 63 are all as equally in villain's chkraising range imo (moreso than 4h5h or Ah6h)... so even if we're not confident that TPGK+ is in villain's range I think we're OK to stack off here. I just can't see narrowing villain's range here to 66 and only 66 so that we are folding third nuts.

If you think that villains at these stakes dont take into account stack sizes then what makes you think they take into account their opponents agg frequency.
Also ive never came across a villain that is this passive that plays TPGK like this, its just not in his range enough to be even considered.

How can you say, "Passive or not", its the only reason why im suggesting that we consider making a fold with bottom set. Also doesnt make since that villain would raise hands like 2 pairs and not massive combo hands that have more equity, even against the nuts.

Well this is why we have HUDs, so that we can narrow villains range to such hands, which makes up for the cost of buying one in the first place, by folding hands like this against this type of villain.(of course hud is a lot more useful than this but just saying)

Also just to add, we have a merged sample of villain which makes the decision a lot more accurate, and not just a hunch on what type villain exactly is.
 
mrmonkey

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If you think that villains at these stakes dont take into account stack sizes then what makes you think they take into account their opponents agg frequency.
Also ive never came across a villain that is this passive that plays TPGK like this, its just not in his range enough to be even considered.

I think some villains at 2nl might consider ESS and such, but ones displaying 32/3 stats over 400+ hands probably don't (and probably don't have a HUD). People that are 1-tabling don't need a HUD to tell them that someone has been playing against them aggressively and taking pots away. This guy isn't checking out OP's AF and being like... oh, he's aggressive... he's just noticing that he's getting bet into a lot and it's maybe aggravating him. The player dynamics here is one reason why this usually passive guy might be spazzing a bit with TPGK.

How can you say, "Passive or not", its the only reason why im suggesting that we consider making a fold with bottom set.

Because I don't think a 32/3 player makes that much of a distinction between two pair and a set, and I think they play them basically the same way... particularly given the table dynamics.

Also doesnt make since that villain would raise hands like 2 pairs and not massive combo hands that have more equity, even against the nuts.

Not to a thinking player it doesn't, but I think you are giving villain too much credit for being a thinking player. He's probably just looking at his hand as being "made" or "not", and two pair hands are "made" whereas monster draws are "not". This is why I discount big draws like 4h5h and 6hXh. He's also probably not thinking about fold equity here, which is a major reason to be checkraising huge draws like that in the first place.
 
The Messiah

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Yah, maybe its -ev for me to be giving advice at these stakes..
 
forsakenone

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I stack off, at these stakes fish just randomly decide to get aggressive.

even so, if it's set over set so be it.
 
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He shows up with K6/AK/KQ more than enough of the time to make this a call considering we are literally only worried about 66- which is a total of 3 combos.

For what it's worth I'm not sure I ever folded a set on a flop, at these levels I don't think you can ever put him on a range limited to better sets. Like someone said above me they will show up with top 2 pair more than enough to get your sets in profitably.
 
youregoodmate

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Hmmm... I actually think this might be a fold. I only think this can be 66 or AK, and Im sure he raises AK pre in his 3% range. I say fold and find a better spot to stack this guy.
 
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Hmmm... I actually think this might be a fold. I only think this can be 66 or AK, and Im sure he raises AK pre in his 3% range. I say fold and find a better spot to stack this guy.

I'm not saying folding is bad, as others on this thread clearly agree with it. But he only 3bets 2% of the time which I think may be JJ+. I think he could easily flat AK and only 3bet his "made hands" so I definitely would keep AK in his range here. Way more combos of AK than 66 (plus you could add K6 here as well) and that's why I personally am never folding.
 
youregoodmate

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I'm not saying folding is bad, as others on this thread clearly agree with it. But he only 3bets 2% of the time which I think may be JJ+. I think he could easily flat AK and only 3bet his "made hands" so I definitely would keep AK in his range here. Way more combos of AK than 66 (plus you could add K6 here as well) and that's why I personally am never folding.

His AF is 0.9 though. Im not sure he 3 bets the flop with AK at all. K6 is a possibility, but im not sure I want the variance at these stakes.
 
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His AF is 0.9 though. Im not sure he 3 bets the flop with AK at all. K6 is a possibility, but im not sure I want the variance at these stakes.

So if you think he never 3bets AK here on the flop, are we really just going to put him on 66 and that's it? Seems like its pretty tough to narrow down his range that much. Maybe not though.

Also, just out of curiosity- when does AF become that reliable of a stat in terms of # of hands. If he just checks/calls a ton of hands won't his AF be way lower than how really plays when he does hold a premium hand, since he plays so many marginal hands? (not sure if my question makes sense there..)
 
youregoodmate

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So if you think he never 3bets AK here on the flop, are we really just going to put him on 66 and that's it? Seems like its pretty tough to narrow down his range that much. Maybe not though.

Also, just out of curiosity- when does AF become that reliable of a stat in terms of # of hands. If he just checks/calls a ton of hands won't his AF be way lower than how really plays when he does hold a premium hand, since he plays so many marginal hands? (not sure if my question makes sense there..)

I understand, yeah possibly. 411 hands is enough to give us an idea, added to his low PFR, I think its easy to deduce he is really passive. I can obviously understand people who want to get it in, but I would just rather avoid the variance of 200bb at 2nl if im 80% sure hes ahead. Hes an easy player to get value from, so I would just pick a better spot.
 
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