$2 NLHE 6-max: Am I crazy for folding this?

micromachine · Sep 22, 2011

Villain is an unknown, only had 20 hands or so on him.

I begrudgingly folded because he represented real strength and I just couldn't be sure I was ahead. I thought I would wait for a better opportunity to stack someone, and actually did so a few hands later on a different table with KK all in preflop vs QQ.

What do you think?

Poker Stars - $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em (6 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $3.75
BB: $1.98
UTG: $2.25
MP: $2.40
CO Hero: $1.83
BTN: $0.60

Pre-flop: ($0.03) Hero is CO and dealt

UTG folds, MP calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.06, 2 folds, BB calls $0.04, MP calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.19)

(3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $0.14, BB calls $0.14, MP raises to $2.34 (All-in), Hero folds, BB folds, MP returned $2.20

Final Pot: $0.61

Showdown:
BTN mucks his hand
Outcome: MP wins $0.58

tenbob · Sep 22, 2011

Don't fold sets.

RVladimiro · Sep 22, 2011

I'd call and expect to be ahead most of the time at 2NL.

Shoves like this are either weak or the nuts but mostly weak looking for folds and no one is putting you on a set and I'm certainly not putting them on KK or QQ without a passive PF history.

So with a range like this: 22+ ATs+ K9s+ Q9s+ J9s+ T9s ATo+ K9o+ Q9o+ J9o+ T9o and removing JJ+ and assorted dumb flush draws that fish shove in big pots, we are ~78% ahead according to PokerStove. We are ~38% behind straights but there's much more than straights in the shoving 2NL range.

EDIT: I didn't even include stuff like 98s that shove a gutshot to the dumb side of a straight and Kh4h and stuff like that.

I really can't fold this but I'm a fish.

jbbb · Sep 22, 2011

brank · Sep 22, 2011

RVladimiro said:
We are ~38% behind straights but there's much more than straights in the shoving 2NL range.

This.

This board is so draw heavy and hits a ton of ranges plus the fact that you even have decent equity vs the nuts makes this a fist pump call.

ThePokerGoon · Sep 22, 2011

RVladimiro said:
I'd call and expect to be ahead most of the time at 2NL.

Shoves like this are either weak or the nuts but mostly weak looking for folds and no one is putting you on a set and I'm certainly not putting them on KK or QQ without a passive PF history.

So with a range like this: 22+ ATs+ K9s+ Q9s+ J9s+ T9s ATo+ K9o+ Q9o+ J9o+ T9o and removing JJ+ and assorted dumb flush draws that fish shove in big pots, we are ~78% ahead according to PokerStove. We are ~38% behind straights but there's much more than straights in the shoving 2NL range.

EDIT: I didn't even include stuff like 98s that shove a gutshot to the dumb side of a straight and Kh4h and stuff like that.

I really can't fold this but I'm a fish.

You can't just make up a percentage and base ways to play on it. There are real given percentages of the game, and someones range doesn't include this statistic. folding a set on the turn is not as bad of a play, but you know on the flop you always have 7 outs at least (to make your full house), 10 on the turn, and with broadway there is always option of chop. Alot of players especially in small stakes will push with just a ten there. realize no matter what draw your up against unless its a straight flush draw, you are always ahead and the favorite. also in response, half of the hands you said were impossible, K of hearts is on the board.

micromachine · Sep 22, 2011

OK thanks guys, that will be the last time I fold a set a then

I can see that here I was very likely to be ahead.

Just trying to think of a situation when you would fold a set...what about this:
MP, CO and BB are 150-200BB deep...
you have 2h2d in MP and raise to 4XBB,
you get 2 callers CO and BB (both perceived to be very solid players),
flop is 2cTcJc,
BB checks
you bet 3/4 pot,
CO re-raises,
BB 3-bets all-in,
you ??

RVladimiro · Sep 22, 2011

micromachine said:
OK thanks guys, that will be the last time I fold a set a then

I can see that here I was very likely to be ahead.

Just trying to think of a situation when you would fold a set...what about this:
MP, CO and BB are 150-200BB deep...
you have 2h2d in MP and raise to 4XBB,
you get 2 callers CO and BB (both perceived to be very solid players),
flop is 2cTcJc,
BB checks
you bet 3/4 pot,
CO re-raises,
BB 3-bets all-in,
you ??

I can see a raise (even a shove) from a good 2NL regular (but they are so rare that two on the same a table... well...) with KcQx (where x is irrelevant) or AKo where one is clubs and TT flatted PF.

But yeah, I think that with a raise and then a over shove it's quite a easy fold I think. What doesn't beat you right now will probably beat you later like a OESD + FD or bigger set.

You can't just make up a percentage and base ways to play on it. There are real given percentages of the game, and someones range doesn't include this statistic.

I didn't make up anything. The real given percentages you mention were taken from PokerStove. Nothing was made up, it was calculated.

ClubArrow77 · Sep 22, 2011

Dont just fold because you have a set. Look at villain's line. Now its very likely that villain had middle pair or possibly a draw and was bluffing. I doubt KK or QQ since villain would reraise and we have AA beat. Only hand that beats us here is AT but villain would slowplay such a strong hand I think and we still have outs if our board pairs or we hit the last J.

Nathan Williams · Sep 22, 2011

Raise a lot more preflop and call the flop shove.

Skaplun · Sep 28, 2011

you are extremely afraid of monsters (I can see this in all your posts.)
Accept loses, dont expect to win every session.
Everyone you play with sucks(there are no good/solid 2nl regs) and the quicker you learn that the better.
never Vbet less than 80% (river as well), and dont fold sets!!!
never! ever! ever!

calm yourself before a session, forget about looking at results. hit hands and value bet every time. dont be scared that they will fold (they wont) dont be scared that you are behind (there are no monsters under the bed) and just bet bet bet every time you have tp+

micromachine · Sep 28, 2011

Skaplun said:
you are extremely afraid of monsters (I can see this in all your posts.)

This isn't true lol, look at my other recent hand 'Am I in trouble here?' Although I played the hand badly by not raising the flop, I was still happy to get it all in with my set of 5's even though the villain could have had a set of K's or a straight. I have even (stupidly) gone all-in with TPTK before with AQ on a Q high flop. So I def don't have mubs.

I think with the hand in this thread there was a results orientated psychological reason for folding though. I was up by a few buy-ins for the session and didn't want to lose it all on a hand I wasn't sure about. So maybe I do need to try and be less results oriented...I agree with that.

ben_rhyno · Sep 28, 2011

Skaplun said:
Everyone you play with sucks(there are no good/solid 2nl regs) and the quicker you learn that the better.

http://www.pokertableratings.com/stars-player-search/BlackRain79
7k winner at 2NL and he's already posted in this thread

The general consensus is that 2NL players suck, and they do, but there are definitely a tiny amount of very good solid regs.

With that said, raise bigger pre and don't fold the flop

ClubArrow77 · Sep 28, 2011

I think the general consensus is that most 2nl players are not great because the rake at 2nl puts a dent in your winnings and people who can beat 2nl significantly move up. Even BlackRain79 has played on a variety of limits and is by far the exception to the norm (but wow, glad Ive never run into him). Anyway, what hands did you put villain on during the hand Micromachine? More specifically, what hands did you put him on that had you beat?

micromachine · Sep 28, 2011

ClubArrow77 said:
Anyway, what hands did you put villain on during the hand Micromachine? More specifically, what hands did you put him on that had you beat?

Well hands that would beat are straights (T9, AT) and higher sets (QQ, KK, although prob would have 3-bet). There are also plenty of hands that could outdraw me to make straights (like KT), flushes (XhXh) or full houses (QK for example). The fact that there was another player to act influenced my decision too. But as said above, I was up on the session and didn't want to take unnecessary risks, not that that is a good reason not to play this hand.

ClubArrow77 said:
the rake at 2nl puts a dent in your winnings and people who can beat 2nl significantly move up

Why do people keep saying this? The rake at 2NL at PS and most sites is 5%, just like it is at 5NL and 25NL...or am I missing something? Is it a rakeback/VIP issue then? Less points = less rakeback = more rake comparatively.

seachicken · Sep 28, 2011

BlackRain79 said:
Raise a lot more preflop and call the flop shove.

What do you mean by a lot more?

RamdeeBen · Sep 28, 2011

Easy call.

I think most times you are up agaisnt a flush draw, open ender more than anything else here.

Nathan Williams · Sep 28, 2011

seachicken said:
What do you mean by a lot more?

With premium hands at NL2 I normally make a standard raise (10c here) plus add a couple or several more big blinds because its NL2. So I might make it 12c or 14c here.

baudib1 · Sep 28, 2011

I would never fold here but we should note that BB's call takes some of the draws out of MP's range.

seachicken · Sep 29, 2011

BlackRain79 said:
With premium hands at NL2 I normally make a standard raise (10c here) plus add a couple or several more big blinds because its NL2. So I might make it 12c or 14c here.

Thanks for the advice. When i first read your post about beating a lot more i was like that doesn't make sense. All you are doing is encouraging hands you can beat to fold and hands that have you beat to raise. Then i remembered this is 2NL.

$2 NLHE 6-max: Am I crazy for folding this?

micromachine

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