$2 NLHE 6-max: AJs from SB

fletchdad

fletchdad

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OK, I played this terrible. I wont make any comment, and in case you are wondering "What were you thinking" I cant really say......

I am just wondering how people approach this spot. Folding AJs vs a BTN raise is not good. I read some 3/4/5 bets stuff (Thanks Draza) and it came back to me on review.. a bit late I know. I am guessing 3 bet this was the best thing to do?

poker stars $2.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 2885795
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

CO: $2.00 - VPIP: 15, PFR: 12, 3B: 3, AF: 3.8, hands: 124
BTN: $2.01 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 17, 3B: 20, AF: 0.0, Hands: 23
Hero (SB): $3.04
BB: $4.62 - VPIP: 17, PFR: 16, 3B: 3, AF: 5.0, Hands: 198
UTG: $2.01 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 12, 3B: 0, AF: 1.1, Hands: 536

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is SB with A :heart: J :heart:
2 folds, BTN raises to $0.08, Hero calls $0.07, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.18) T :diamond: J :spade: 5 :spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.08, Hero calls $0.08

Turn: ($0.34) 9 :diamond: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.26, Hero?
 
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Tomasz

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vs btn 3-bet preflop as played fold turn is ok but you cant very happy called river
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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3-betting just folds worse, and we flops a hand with a pair or draw quite often. I prefer just calling.

This isn't a bad flop to donk out. Villain will be less inclined to cbet on such a wet flop, and will have many hands with a float-worthy draw. I kinda like donk-leading here.

On the turn, as played, the board has run out pretty terribly and we have very little committed. I would just fold.
 
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MinhANguyen

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3-bet pre, and we can find an exploitable fold on the turn. Especially with that nasty sizing change from flop > turn.
 
Trabendo_daze

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I guess I'm going to disagree with everyone here.

I think this is a fist-pump 3-bet for value. Pump it up to like 2.5x his raise and he'll still call off with a weaker range than AJs (think other suited aces, KQ, middle pairs). If he's in position with a decent hand, there's not much reason to fold other than you're not tremendously deep.

As played, donking flop has to be good, but I don't mind check-calling.

Here's where I differ: how are we folding TPTK here OTT!? Our hand is so underrepped and BTN can literally have anything. Okay 9d shouldn't traditionally be a great barrel card but what are we putting him on, only QQ+ and straights? He could be betting worse for value very easily. No way I'm folding here. I'd even be tempted to check raise all in on this board. Flush draws, straight draws, and worse Jacks can all call you off. You might even get heroed by worse than that.
 
Trabendo_daze

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And as a side note I don't see anything "terrible" here. The worst thing I see is not 3-betting, but that's definitely not even that bad.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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I think this is a fist-pump 3-bet for value.
KQ & AJ are probably the worst hands you could 3-bet for value here. In order for this to be a fist-pump, it implies that you think AT, KJ, and QJ are also profitable to 3-bet in this spot.

To me, it's borderline. If you think your opponent is solid preflop (like most regs are), but more questionable post, then I'd lean towards putting him in weird spots (like donking, check/raising, ect.) after the flop with the borderline hands.

Course, I don't really like playing OOP against a reg either. So yeah, borderline. Probably doesn't matter what you do preflop, it's all EV neutral.
 
vinylspiros

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I guess I'm going to disagree with everyone here.

I think this is a fist-pump 3-bet for value. Pump it up to like 2.5x his raise and he'll still call off with a weaker range than AJs (think other suited aces, KQ, middle pairs). If he's in position with a decent hand, there's not much reason to fold other than you're not tremendously deep.

As played, donking flop has to be good, but I don't mind check-calling.

Here's where I differ: how are we folding TPTK here OTT!? Our hand is so underrepped and BTN can literally have anything. Okay 9d shouldn't traditionally be a great barrel card but what are we putting him on, only QQ+ and straights? He could be betting worse for value very easily. No way I'm folding here. I'd even be tempted to check raise all in on this board. Flush draws, straight draws, and worse Jacks can all call you off. You might even get heroed by worse than that.

Exactly how i see it.

This hand is deffo a 3bet pre all day long versus everyone. Nits, tags,lags,fish whatever.

+1 to what you said here. Except the jammin turn part just calling it down till river is usually fine unless he goes crazy on river with a jam where we have to re evaluate depending on what villains style/tendencies are.
 
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beckyg89

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Call the Turn

I think you can call the turn as villian could be double barrelling with some pair plus draws that you are ahead of and re evaluate on the river. As for Pre- I like just calling rather than potentiall bloating the pot with a fairly vulnerable hand OOP.
 
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braveslice

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Pre I think both are ok, 3bet and call. If this is zoom 6max he might just call with AK and AQ and fold other aces so I would be a bit scared if he calls. It seems you have so many hands it's not zoom, so no idea what he will call.

I would still call turn because his sizing is very small OTF (doesen't imply anything too good) and now suddenly large he can easily have just more outs, like QT and if he bets the river we can be mostly sure we have worse hand so calling doesn’t put us to difficult spot OTR.
 
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DrazaFFT

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this guy opens 4bb at btn, he is either fish or his hand is superstrong pre, he missed the flop and make this what is more of a excuse for a cbet than a cbet, he have AK 99%

about 3bet or not, i play MSS, AJs is a 3bet/callallin (or value) hand at SB vs BTN, at 100bb i dont know i dont wanna flat OOP i would still 3bet but would fold to a 5bet, kinda want to play against hic c3b range which we are ahead against...
 
Trabendo_daze

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KQ & AJ are probably the worst hands you could 3-bet for value here. In order for this to be a fist-pump, it implies that you think AT, KJ, and QJ are also profitable to 3-bet in this spot.

Woah woah, how do we get from AJs to KJ and QJ, those are totally not the same hands. AJs dominates all lower aces, KJ doesnt. AJ is ahead of KQ, KJ is behind. QJ doesn't do any of these things and is dominated by KQ KJ AQ AJ....

3-betting AJ does not imply 3-betting anything weaker. It is what it is - 3-betting AJ. You could say that it implies 3-betting stronger hands I guess - TT+, AQ, AK. I'd agree with that.

I do understand your point about being OOP against a reg, but the implication that you think I was making is not true.
 
c9h13no3

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If it's a fistpump, that implies he's calling with tons of worse hands, so those weaker hands are also profitable.

I think you just proved my point ;-).
 
Trabendo_daze

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Okay fair enough, I take back "first pump". I'm still 3-betting AJs though ;)
 
Trabendo_daze

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I think the bigger issue here is the idea of check-folding turn. For the people that advocated for that line, can you explain how we are behind his range here?
 
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3bet pre flop, cbet 1/2-2/3 flop, check/call the turn and play the river depending. Most likely calling the river unless something really ugly comes down...... Actually probably calling pretty much any river card.
 
vinylspiros

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3bet pre flop, cbet 1/2-2/3 flop, check/call the turn and play the river depending. Most likely calling the river unless something really ugly comes down...... Actually probably calling pretty much any river card.



pretty much yea.
 
John A

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CR or lead the flop. I prefer leading the flop in these spots typically since most opponents won't c-bet these boards w/o a hand. As far as 3-bet or call pre, I don't mind either but I'd lean towards 3-betting from the SB w/ decent hands so you don't get squeezed and also do it for value vs. an aggressive opponent.
 
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braveslice

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We can't assume button is agressive. 3bet 20% most likely just means he has one 3bet out of five. Imo his stats are building up more to be a nit reg, they go solid value only, ocassional agression with good draws and when they lose it very rarely, 3 street bluffing is nono, top pair top kicker -> 2 streets of value.
 
Trabendo_daze

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@braveslice I totally disagree. His stats just say that he's a very competent reg. Very competent regs make very few mistakes. This means getting value when it's there, stealing when it's possible, and bluffing when it's profitable. Villain likely knows he should be raising wide from the button, so he likely is raising wide from the button. There's no way that villain's range consists of TP+/draws here. Definitely some bluffs in his range. Definitely stacking off.
 
fletchdad

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I hate to admit this, but I must, after so many people have taken their time to share their thought with me. And i appreciate all of you for doing that.

I folded. That is why I said I played it terrible. After I folded, I even said out loud "You idiot, you played that terrible". To do what I did and then fold as I did was simply senseless. I obviously had no plan here and, at least in that way, the hand was good because it made me think about why I cannot play like this in the future.
 
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braveslice

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@Trabendo_daze not sure your logic apply to the first level of poker NL2 where just making tiny bit less mistakes than others makes you a good win rate.
 
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braveslice

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To add, at least these mistakes are common at NL2: 1. Open / call too wide 2. Call too much 3. bluff too much against players who like to call. Thus you make a desent win rate by playing tighter, calling less, bluffing less. And these are dominant traits of regs at NL2.
 
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I hate to admit this, but I must, after so many people have taken their time to share their thought with me. And i appreciate all of you for doing that.

I folded. That is why I said I played it terrible. After I folded, I even said out loud "You idiot, you played that terrible". To do what I did and then fold as I did was simply senseless. I obviously had no plan here and, at least in that way, the hand was good because it made me think about why I cannot play like this in the future.

Give yourself a break dude. I might be reading into this but constuctive criticism will get you a lot further. My suggestion is after each session, take an hour and go through every hand. Teach yourself like you would teach a child to spell. You're learning something new about poker and about yourself so make it fun. Find the tendencies that you feel you would like to change then, pick one and really work hard on changing it. No matter what the outcome of the hand is, make sure you know why you're doing that one thing. Then move on to the next and the next and the next.

I'm helping my girlfriend's kids learn how to spell so that might be a little touchy feely but I've found that the best way is to have a little fun with it : )
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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Give yourself a break dude.


Yea I do. I just felt my plan-less approach to this hand was terrible, as I am one who constantly asks people "Why did you do that" "what was your plan" and should know better myself.

But, yea I give myself a break. I used to give that break to my mouse or keyboard, but I am beyond that now..lol
 
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