$2 NLHE 6-max: Was this a fold/a bet on turn or not?

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lackingtoast

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 32/18/1

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 194 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 78.57, 3Bet Preflop: 44.44, hands: 28)
BTN: 96 BB (VPIP: 17.86, PFR: 3.57, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 28)
SB: 124 BB (VPIP: 19.25, PFR: 15.53, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 330)
BB: 92.5 BB (VPIP: 32.14, PFR: 17.86, 3Bet Preflop: 15.38, Hands: 28)
Hero (UTG): 101 BB
MP: 102 BB (VPIP: 16.82, PFR: 15.02, 3Bet Preflop: 7.78, Hands: 220)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:heart: A:spade:

Hero raises to 3.5 BB, fold, CO calls 3.5 BB, fold, fold, BB raises to 14.5 BB, Hero calls 11 BB, CO calls 11 BB

Flop: (44 BB, 3 players) 5:club: 4:club: K:club:
BB checks, Hero bets 25 BB, fold, BB calls 25 BB

Turn: (94 BB, 2 players) J:heart:
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (94 BB, 2 players) 7:heart:
BB bets 24.5 BB, Hero calls 24.5 BB

BB shows A:club: 6:club: (Flush, Ace High)
(Pre 31%, Flop 98%, Turn 100%)
Hero mucks K:heart: A:spade: (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 69%, Flop 2%, Turn 0%)
BB wins 136 BB

2 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.
 
C

ClarkYex

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First of all I'm playing since a couple of months and I'm not a great player, and probably I don't know if I will apply most of what I'm going to say cause I have a lot to improve in my game, so here are my thoughts


Personally preflop I would 4bet depending on villian 3bet stat

On the flop I heard from a YouTuber I follow that he checks all his range in monotone flops and I usually try to do that, but definitely I would never donk bet, I prefer check/call and the on the turn see how to follow.
If I would ever donk bet I prefer a 1/4-1/3 bet because with the possible flush I wouldnt want to inflate the pot

And then on the river personally I would call because of the bet size but probably fold to bigger size
 
PaxMundi

PaxMundi

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Id bet the turn to protect against villains equity and for value the flush is a small part of villains range and you want to get paid by hands that have a club.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Post flop is fine IMO. 4 bet pre.
 
S

Sidetracked

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I agree with 4 betting preflop. And with the size of his 3 bet (quite large), I will sometimes 4 bet shove to fold out exactly the kind of hand that he has.
 
SuzdalDEcor

SuzdalDEcor

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4bet 4bet 4bet... Never play 4bet this spot man. Don't listen to them.
Call preflop right play. Flop you must check in this positions. And you must catch the bluffs on the turn and river.
 
teh_colonel_saigon

teh_colonel_saigon

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4bet 4bet 4bet... Never play 4bet this spot man. Don't listen to them.
Call preflop right play. Flop you must check in this positions. And you must catch the bluffs on the turn and river.

Yea.. I think your preflop call is fine. I don't see a reason to 4-bet here. Don't get it.

Your flop bet is good, but it is an uncomfortable spot with CO and BB still in the pot. I like the bet size- its strong but not too big.

On the turn vs one opponent I'd bet since you do not have the A of clubs.

Villains River bet is weird. Pot was 94, he had 50~ behind and didn't shove. This is almost certainly a value bet, for that reason. What could he have to value bet, that 3-bet pre and checked flop? Here is a range I came up with before seeing his actual hand:
AA (3 combinations)
QQs (6 combinations)
JJ (3combinations)
77(3 combinations) may check raise flop
From villains stats (not enough info really) we could throw in KQ as well, at 8 combinations, since he seems to be 3-betting pretty wide.

From that range it is a call... we aren't winning all the time, but when we are ahead, we win enough to make up for it. From the initial value betting range I had, we beat 6c, lose to 9c, so 9/15ths of the time we lose 24.5 bbs, 6/15s of the time we win his 24.5 + the pot of 94.

This is what I was thinking as I read... so I would have called. When he shows the suited ace, we know we will be calling his 3-bets more often in the future- I think flat calling them with decent hands, and 4-betting with premium hands and with bluffs (KQs, QJs etc)
 
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c0rnBr34d

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4bet 4bet 4bet... Never play 4bet this spot man. Don't listen to them.
Call preflop right play. Flop you must check in this positions. And you must catch the bluffs on the turn and river.

Yea.. I think your preflop call is fine. I don't see a reason to 4-bet here. Don't get it.
...
since he seems to be 3-betting pretty wide.
...
4-betting with premium hands and with bluffs (KQs, QJs etc)
I don't get it either, sounds to me like you created a case for 4 betting after stating that you didn't see a reason to. We are in position against a V who appears to like to PFR wide and 3 bet wide. Why don't we like a 4 bet here? If we take it down pre that's an excellent result. If he calls we get to play AKo in position which is also a fine result. Do you not consider AKo a premium hand? Are you only 4 betting KK+ and KQs, QJs as bluffs?

And to the first poster's points. This seems really results oriented. We smashed this flop but don't hold a club. Why would we let V draw for free when checked to? There are a very limited number of flopped flushes V can have. There are many more combos of TT+, Ax with one club, strong suited Kx, etc. If we auto go into bluff catch mode when this strong and always check back top top with AKo on this board we are missing tons of value and letting Vs catch up for free too often IMO. Sure there will be times like these when we are way behind. But there will be way more times when V has one club and pays too much to try to hit it.
 
V

Vlad Savchenko

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The villain looks like a 3-bet monkey with 15% 3-bet (it's only over 28 hands, but him raising A6s here proves the point).
Against such a wide range 4-bet all-in prints a ton of money (remember, the pot is 22BB already, and BB started the hand with 92.5BB), if you want to go for a trap - use AA or KK.

Most people, though, aren't going to be 3-betting this much, so if you aren't convinced that he's this wide here, calling can be OK (although with this amount of money in the pot with AK versus a what is most likely to be a fish all-in should be profitable anyways).

Postflop you have TPTK in a 2 SPR pot, and even though he did have a flush in this instance, he could also have a bunch of weaker hands that would call the turn shove, such as PP with a club, Ax with an Ac, Kx, or maybe even some weaker hands.
So getting it in on the turn is definitely a preferable play, and if we get stacked - so be it.

Btw here's some math on 4-bet shoving (we assume CO always folds and BB calls JJ+/AK, which is 3% range):
1. We take the 22BB pot 80% of the time without rake when everyone folds (15% 3-bet, only 3% continues).
2. We have 40% equity against the calling range.

So the EV of a shove roughly is (calculations are a tiny bit simplified):
0.8*22 + 0.2*(-0.1*189) = +13.8 BB.

This is an enormous profit and I doubt that calling pre can make you more money here.
 
F

fundiver199

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I am definitely 4-betting here. BB have shown an ability to 3-bet light, even its a small sample, and even more importantly we got cold called by a huge fish, who play literally every hand. I dont want to just call here and let him see a flop with his whatever and have to play the pot 3-ways as monkey in the middle.

Stacks are a bit awkward for 4-betting, and jamming could be an option. Its a bit large though, so I would probably just go to 30BB exactly. That should be enough to get the fish out of the pot, unless he is 12 beers in, and if big blind jam on me, I am calling it off. If he just flat, we are looking at a stack to pot ratio of 1, and I am jamming all flops, weather I hit or miss.
 
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