$2 NLHE 6-max: 75o free flop - rivers straight - flush possibility on board - 3 opponents

S

Sam Powers

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Total posts
69
Awards
1
Chips
1
$2 NLHE 6-max: 75o free flop - rivers straight - flush possibility on board - 3 opponents

HERO ($2.15)
UTG ($5.00)
MP ($3.86)
CO ($0.84)
BTN ($0.48)
SB ($1.60)

HERO dealt :7h4: :5c4:

Preflop
2 folds, CO calls, BTN calls, SB calls, HERO checks.

Flop ($0.08) :ks4: :6d4: :8s4:
SB checks, HERO checks, CO bets $0.05, BTN calls, SB calls, HERO calls.

Turn ($0.27) :ac4:
4 checks.

River ($0.27) :9s4:
SB bets $0.14, HERO raises to $0.28, 2 folds, SB re-raises to $0.42, HERO's action?
 
A

acemenow

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
May 3, 2008
Total posts
2,793
Awards
2
Chips
205
My thought is you are pot committed to call and hope he doesn't have the likely flush. Your calling his .48 with 12c for a pot of about 1.22c -

If my numbers are off I apologize and let me know but that is what I see
 
S

Sam Powers

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Total posts
69
Awards
1
Chips
1
yeah pot odds were pretty big, almost 7-1, 0.14 to win 0.97
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
Small raisers usually are quite bad players, so there is a chance that you are sometimes but rarely good, and you get good enough odds like @ace and @sam say to see his hand and not feel bad about it and make a note what he did.

For raising this, you really need very good notes about the guy, and even then he sometimes has it.

@ace pot commitment is wrong wording here
 
F

FlushWithFlavor

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 14, 2016
Total posts
41
Chips
0
That's a tough one! pot odds are good, go with your gut. Me personally, I'd call.
 
A

acemenow

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
May 3, 2008
Total posts
2,793
Awards
2
Chips
205
braveslice said:
Small raisers usually are quite bad players, so there is a chance that you are sometimes but rarely good, and you get good enough odds like @ace and @sam say to see his hand and not feel bad about it and make a note what he did.

For raising this, you really need very good notes about the guy, and even then he sometimes has it.

@ace pot commitment is wrong wording here
Click to expand...

Hi Braveslice - can you explain or point me in a direction to research?

I am thinking you are telling me that he is not pot committed? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Thanks in advance, always appreciate feedback
 
S

Sam Powers

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Total posts
69
Awards
1
Chips
1
braveslice said:
Small raisers usually are quite bad players, so there is a chance that you are sometimes but rarely good, and you get good enough odds like @ace and @sam say to see his hand and not feel bad about it and make a note what he did.

For raising this, you really need very good notes about the guy, and even then he sometimes has it.

@ace pot commitment is wrong wording here
Click to expand...



Thanks for the reply. How come im rarely good?
I think there are a couple two pairs he could have, AK? Maybe even a set that he slow played. I think most times i should fold, but i dont think im RARELY good. Ive noticed a lot of people playing Ax pretty loosely. I used an equity calculator during hand review after this session, gave em a range including any two spades - the 3 that came on board, all possible sets and straights, and the two pair combos i thought he would play like this with and got about 30 something % (i ran it earlier today i dont remember the exact percentage)
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
there is flush and 7T out there....if prolly just flat river
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
@ace here is one
https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/understanding-what-it-means-to-be-pot-committed-20050.htm

Pot commitment (from the link) means: “The point of no return”.

In this hand, hero pot committed would mean that when villain shoves the river instead of raising small, hero thinks he has good enough odds to call.

This also implies that with your bluff hands especially on the river you hardly ever are pot committed, even with mega odds, because your odds to win are so slim.Also it implies, that playing AK aggressively gets you sometimes to the position of calling it off or raising it AI, even when you think you are behind, because the odds are there.
 
Last edited:
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
@Sam it’s just a hunch at least for me. The main reason for me is that on the river players are very cautious. Also, though calling mistakes are very common on the river, to show aggression usually indicates very good hand. This can be even encapsulated to a rule of thumb -> in micros you need a good reason on the river to call a raise. (Some of the good reasons are example you having very good hand (not TPTK) or notes saying villain usually has something bad here) Lastly there is flush on the board, flush is the holy grail of micros, even the most wild ones bow their head for it for silent pray.
 
Last edited:
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
@Sam I think you got your ranges probably right for first bet, but not anymore for reraise, except if you got him angry, but without notes we don't know what kind of player he is.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
This scenario highlights the pitfalls of why we don't draw to OESD with flush draw on board.

I would just fold on the flop. If I were going to continue, I would probably C/R instead of just calling. We C/R, then bomb turn. We probably just win the hand right there, with 7 high.

Edit: we can't really C/R here because there are short stacks (CO and BTN). They may just say "**** it" and stick their chips in. I thought I should note this. This is why I fold flop.

However, if we hit our straight, in this case the 9s comes off, it could be a reverse-implied odds fiasco. That's why I just fold. But I still like C/R and bomb turn better IF we choose to continue (against full stacked villains).

I think folding is nitty, but probably correct on the river. It sure seems like dude has a flush.
 
A

acemenow

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
May 3, 2008
Total posts
2,793
Awards
2
Chips
205
braveslice said:
@ace here is one
https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/understanding-what-it-means-to-be-pot-committed-20050.htm

Pot commitment (from the link) means: “The point of no return”.

In this hand, hero pot committed would mean that when villain shoves the river instead of raising small, hero thinks he has good enough odds to call.

This also implies that with your bluff hands especially on the river you hardly ever are pot committed, even with mega odds, because your odds to win are so slim.Also it implies, that playing AK aggressively gets you sometimes to the position of calling it off or raising it AI, even when you think you are behind, because the odds are there.
Click to expand...

@ brave, ty very much this has always been difficult for me to grasp. Great article by the way. again thanks!
 
S

Sam Powers

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Total posts
69
Awards
1
Chips
1
Beanfacekilla said:
This scenario highlights the pitfalls of why we don't draw to OESD with flush draw on board.



I would just fold on the flop. If I were going to continue, I would probably C/R instead of just calling. We C/R, then bomb turn. We probably just win the hand right there, with 7 high.



Edit: we can't really C/R here because there are short stacks (CO and BTN). They may just say "**** it" and stick their chips in. I thought I should note this. This is why I fold flop.



However, if we hit our straight, in this case the 9s comes off, it could be a reverse-implied odds fiasco. That's why I just fold. But I still like C/R and bomb turn better IF we choose to continue (against full stacked villains).



I think folding is nitty, but probably correct on the river. It sure seems like dude has a flush.
Click to expand...



Some good advice here, thank you. On the flop i was really just thinking of good pot odds i had to continue.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
SamPowers said:
Some good advice here, thank you. On the flop i was really just thinking of good pot odds i had to continue.
Click to expand...


Pot odds don't matter as much as everyone thinks. We need to make good, logical decisions, regardless of pot odds.

The reason we could check raise here (if all involved have full stacks), is because we can potentially fold out FDs, win the pot right there uncontested, and win on turn when we don't improve, by taking control of the action.

In this spot it's just a fold on the flop. But some food for thought in the future.
 
M

madalin cerceloiu

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 19, 2016
Total posts
2
Chips
0
I like that raise from SB on the river, is like he knew what you have and he is trying to milk you with that min raise.
"my opinion"
 
antonis32123

antonis32123

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Total posts
6,401
Awards
20
GR
Chips
286
Fold preflop. On flop call , turn check , on river just call . After the wrong move to raise on the river just call , although I have the feeling he's got it .
 
Jensmadsloui

Jensmadsloui

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jan 11, 2017
Total posts
3
Chips
0
To that size, just a call, and pray.
 
Full Flush Poker
Top