$2 NLHE 6-max: 3-Bet all in with QQ on 988 flop.. what do?

runnerx289

runnerx289

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Villian is 36/32 with 3bet of 33%, only over 67 hands.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

BB ($0.67)
Hero (UTG) ($2.53)
MP ($1.31)
CO ($4.53)
Button ($2.87)
SB ($2.01)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q
heart.gif
, Q
spade.gif

Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.16, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.35) 9
spade.gif
, 8
heart.gif
, 8
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, CO raises to $4.37 (All-In), Hero calls $2.17 (All-In)

Turn: ($5.09) 6
spade.gif
(2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($5.09) 6
heart.gif
(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $5.09 | Rake: $0.25

Results below:
Hero had Q
heart.gif
, Q
spade.gif
(two pair, Queens and eights).
CO had K
spade.gif
, K
heart.gif
(two pair, Kings and eights).
Outcome: CO won $4.84

How was this played, Should I of folded the flop?
 
Keith_MM

Keith_MM

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why didn't you 4 bet pre. If he's 33% 3bet your QQ are way ahead of his 3bet range.if he 5 bets i'm getting it all in pre , he's probably stacking off down to TT and maybe down to AQ . It would have been a pretty standard money all in pre hand.


Having given up initiative pre flop , why donk bet the flop? Is his flop shove typical of the way he has been playing in his other 3bet pots? if its typical i'd reluctantly call since he's been doing this with weak hands . If not and i'd checked the flop and he shoves i could find a fold as he's playing differently.
 
el_magiciann

el_magiciann

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I think your call was right here, no matter he had KK or even if he had AA, i would call too , tonight in the BCP freeroll i played my KK just this way and the villain opened AA and i dont regret playing aggressive my premium hands. But if i play higher limits i would be very carefull in these situations.
 
warturtle7

warturtle7

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I think you played correctly pre-flop because you want to see flops against players with worst hands, but only if you know how to play good post flop poker.
I would never donkbet that pot but given the action i would have called the shove as well
 
IPlay

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Can never really fold here at 2NL, especially against a crazy aggro opponent, he could be doing this with 109...
 
Keith_MM

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Can never really fold here at 2NL, especially against a crazy aggro opponent, he could be doing this with 109...

what difference does 2nl make. why ignore the information that the villain is giving you. He's 3bet pre and now shoving flop. calling because its 2nl is a pretty bad reason to be calling.the 33% 3bet stat MAY be skewed if there is a lot of limping , villain raises and others call. it could mean that he had very few opportunities to 3bet as he ended up being the PFR in most of his hands.say he had 6 chances to 3bet and 3bet twice....he still comes up with a 33% 3bet stat but not necessarily 3betting wide. since he would then be isolating limpers a lot he would then end up with semi aggro stats which may mean he has a decent idea of how to play and his opponent are making him seem aggro because of the way he is exploiting them.
 
U

Ubercroz

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At 2nl, 5nl, 10nl you can open raise like 4-5bb's. So Preflop I would raise it to .10, you have a premium hand and no one is giving your bet size any meaning. Once you are 3bet - which will be somewhere between .18-.30. At that point you can either 4bet shove or cold call - though I don't see any reason not to get it in preflop.

Once the flop hits there is no reason to think things have changed in any meaningful way. No draws should legitimately be on this board. So you bet and shove or whatever. You should be racing to get your chips in the middle if you can.
 
IPlay

IPlay

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what difference does 2nl make. why ignore the information that the villain is giving you. He's 3bet pre and now shoving flop. calling because its 2nl is a pretty bad reason to be calling.the 33% 3bet stat MAY be skewed if there is a lot of limping , villain raises and others call. it could mean that he had very few opportunities to 3bet as he ended up being the PFR in most of his hands.say he had 6 chances to 3bet and 3bet twice....he still comes up with a 33% 3bet stat but not necessarily 3betting wide. since he would then be isolating limpers a lot he would then end up with semi aggro stats which may mean he has a decent idea of how to play and his opponent are making him seem aggro because of the way he is exploiting them.

Raising limpers does not boost your 3bet%

That is increased when you raise the raiser.....

So yeah, please stop. Like I said, in 2NL people will shove all in with top pair on that board, folding would be very -EV.
 
vinylspiros

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Since you flatted his 3 bet pre, indont understand why you are donking on the flop? Isnt it pretty obvious thay he is probably going to c-bet? Our line is what i dont like because if hes on ak , we are losing his cbet sometimes by just playing our hand face up and not getting payed.
 
Keith_MM

Keith_MM

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Raising limpers does not boost your 3bet%

That is increased when you raise the raiser.....

So yeah, please stop. Like I said, in 2NL people will shove all in with top pair on that board, folding would be very -EV.

why don't you try reading what i actually said. I said that his 3bet% MAY be getting skewed BECAUSE he may have been raising limpers a lot which would give the 36/32 stats but would mean that he would have very few opportunities to 3bet.
3betting 2 out of 6 opportunities over 67 hands is 33% just the same as 15 out of 45 opportunities is 33% 3bet and illustrate the sample size issues skewing the 3bet%. the 2 out of 6 opportunities may have been AA vs KK and QQ vs AK which is a perfectly understandable 3betting situation with % being skewed to seem to be high because of sample size.
The chance of him getting premium hands 15 out of 45 times though if his opponents had been raising initially giving him more opportunities to 3bet are much less likely making him far more likely to be 3betting wide. This is the sample size issue skewing his apparent stats that i was referring to and explained initially which could be caused if he is on a passive table with a lot of people limping into the pot and he then isolates them by raising. he never gets the opportunity to 3bet so a couple of 3bets with premium hands could make him seem to be 3betting wide and could make his vpip/pfr appear to be aggressive instead of reflecting that he could be exploiting their limping.

did you read my initial post ?
Keith said:
Having given up initiative pre flop , why donk bet the flop? Is his flop shove typical of the way he has been playing in his other 3bet pots? if its typical i'd reluctantly call since he's been doing this with weak hands . If not and i'd checked the flop and he shoves i could find a fold as he's playing differently.

HUD stats are great , but you have to allow for sample size issues and also general play at the table and reads.If this guy is a maniac 3betting wide and reraising like crazy then it s a call. if this is a passive table and its a decent player exploiting the limpers then his stats will be giving a false impression of his ranges.
 
Figaroo2

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despite all the little side issues if you run QQ into KK you are always in big trouble. Its just bad luck and on undercard flops at 2nl you have to call I have notes on hundreds of players who will shove Tptk or any pair on a paired flop it would be negative EV not to call here in the long run....Don't worry about this hand.
 
H

HoldOnTheRail

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I would 4bet pre this guy. He's too aggresive. I dont think you need to bet flop yourself. But as played Im really afraid to call him. Its really not clear whats going on. Even if its 67 hands you can expect him to be a little hard on everybody.
 
H

HoldOnTheRail

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Oh this hand was already posted :D
 
W

Wardy88

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Villian is 36/32 with 3bet of 33%, only over 67 hands.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

BB ($0.67)
Hero (UTG) ($2.53)
MP ($1.31)
CO ($4.53)
Button ($2.87)
SB ($2.01)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q
heart.gif
, Q
spade.gif

Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.16, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.35) 9
spade.gif
, 8
heart.gif
, 8
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, CO raises to $4.37 (All-In), Hero calls $2.17 (All-In)

Turn: ($5.09) 6
spade.gif
(2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($5.09) 6
heart.gif
(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $5.09 | Rake: $0.25

Results below:
Hero had Q
heart.gif
, Q
spade.gif
(two pair, Queens and eights).
CO had K
spade.gif
, K
heart.gif
(two pair, Kings and eights).
Outcome: CO won $4.84

How was this played, Should I of folded the flop?
Against a villain with these stats I'm getting it in all day long here, had you seen any of his 3-bet hands shown down? that may lead you to believe that the 33% may be a hot streak of cards. A good idea is to have a look at the absolute number amount of hands villain 3-bet, this can tell us pretty quickly if it's statistically anomalous or significant.

As is, at these levels villain could be showing up with all sorts pre and I think we should be getting it in pre. If villain is crazy enough to shove TT pre then we should be aiming for that.
 
S

SwiftHax

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Can never really fold here at 2NL, especially against a crazy aggro opponent, he could be doing this with 109...

That's very true. Once there was this player who limped in most of the time and played post-flop very agressively. I raised with 10s and he called. The flop was 6-high, so I c-bet, get raised and make a shove. I know I played the hand badly as he could have a straight, but he still sometimes made folds, so I donked and hoped he would have 77-99. He calls with K6, couldn't be happier.

Against your kind of oponnent, I would just call and have no regrets. He could easily go all in with 10s Js.
 
J

jackaoliver

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At 2nl, 5nl, 10nl you can open raise like 4-5bb's. So Preflop I would raise it to .10, you have a premium hand and no one is giving your bet size any meaning. Once you are 3bet - which will be somewhere between .18-.30. At that point you can either 4bet shove or cold call - though I don't see any reason not to get it in preflop.

Really don't agree with what you have said here, if you start changing your bet sizing due to hand strength then you are going to give off far too much information. Although they may not pay attention to it as much as higher stakes you would be surprised at how serious some players take it. i think 5bb UTG in 6max with premiums is folding out most junk even from a LAG player.

Also not too sure on your 4 bet shove, we have 125bb effective stacks, therefore a 4 bet of around 3-4x his 3 bet is more than enough, especially with a type of player that we know has the possibility of 5 bet shoving light in this spot.
 
U

Ubercroz

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Really don't agree with what you have said here, if you start changing your bet sizing due to hand strength then you are going to give off far too much information. Although they may not pay attention to it as much as higher stakes you would be surprised at how serious some players take it. i think 5bb UTG in 6max with premiums is folding out most junk even from a LAG player.

Also not too sure on your 4 bet shove, we have 125bb effective stacks, therefore a 4 bet of around 3-4x his 3 bet is more than enough, especially with a type of player that we know has the possibility of 5 bet shoving light in this spot.

At low stakes most player won't notice. I don't care what the LAG is doing becaue there is likely a calling station. Most people just don't pay attention at these stakes.

4bet shove when you have 100bb's is pretty much fine. Yeab you can do less, but i don't know if it is better, since you are pretty pot committed anyway. I don't know what there is to REALLY disagree about here.
 
H

Henreiman

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Easy 4bet OOP, especially against such a LAGtard. You should be check/raising this flop, with a decent argument to be made for check/calling, not just betting out. Snap calling this shove - makes no sense for him to do so with anything better than QQ
 
John A

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4-bet for value, and easy call on the flop against a lagtard.
 
Aces2w1n

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4 bet ez pz ...

Shove most flops against these guys... doubt he has an 8 and most like he'll call you with a weak 9 or ATC ...

Treat him the way he looks... weak player and get it in most times against this guy and it's a no brainer... We will be profitable.


One thing I'd like to add though, don't be too upset if we do lose these types of hands....And we tend to get decent downswings/upswings with these plays.
 
W

Wardy88

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We need to re-raise pre and fist pump get it in against this villain.

33/32 with a 33% 3-bet at this level is a lagtard getting out of line too often.

If villain has AA or KK here we should be making a note that villain is aware of their image and is capable of taking advantage of that fact.
 
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