$2 NLHE 6-max: 2NL Defend BB with A8o Flop Top Pair

Full Tilt - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: $0.81 (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, hands: 10)
CO: $4.01 (VPIP: 26.67, PFR: 6.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
BTN: $2.06 (VPIP: 54.55, PFR: 54.55, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 12)
SB: $0.80 (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 6.12, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 50)
Hero (BB): $2.00
UTG: $5.24 (VPIP: 18.75, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 34)

SB posts SB $0.01, Hero posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has 8♦ A♣

UTG raises to $0.06, fold, CO calls $0.06, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.19, 3 players) 3♣ 6♣ 8♥
Hero bets $0.12, fold, CO calls $0.12

Turn: ($0.43, 2 players) 9♦
Hero bets $0.43, CO calls $0.43

River: ($1.29, 2 players) Q♥
Hero ?


I think I'm happy with the donk bet on this flop, but was I too aggressive on the turn?

Is this river a scare card I should be taking advantage of? Or is it time to check and hope to get to show down? If villain was drawing for the flush, he missed..

Thoughts? Thanks.

Just to clarify, this is not defending your BB really. Btn and SB raises are when we defend. Like normally late position/sb raises are wider because they are trying to steal the blinds. But an UTG raise is almost always for value.

Anyways, I'm not a huge fan of donking but I do think this is actually a decent spot to execute it. We are charging flush draws plus overs that might check through. I would only hope that your plan was to bet/fold though and not go crazy here. As for the turn, I think its good to bet big here since we hate just about any river besides an ace or a non-club 8.

Once he calls the turn though it does get pretty gross. He beats us with enough hands now that I think we just have to x/f to anything halfpot or larger. Not 100% on the river spot though without going through ranges a ton. He's pretty passive though so I don't think we have to worry about him bluffing the river too much.

Blobweird123 said:

Just to clarify, this is not defending your BB really. Btn and SB raises are when we defend. Like normally late position/sb raises are wider because they are trying to steal the blinds. But an UTG raise is almost always for value.

Anyways, I'm not a huge fan of donking but I do think this is actually a decent spot to execute it. We are charging flush draws plus overs that might check through. I would only hope that your plan was to bet/fold though and not go crazy here. As for the turn, I think its good to bet big here since we hate just about any river besides an ace or a non-club 8.

Once he calls the turn though it does get pretty gross. He beats us with enough hands now that I think we just have to x/f to anything halfpot or larger. Not 100% on the river spot though without going through ranges a ton. He's pretty passive though so I don't think we have to worry about him bluffing the river too much.

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Yes, point noted about defending. I was trying to post a descriptive title, ended up being inaccurate which is certainly not what I wanted.

Thanks for the input and your assessment. I'm not a super comfortable donk better either, but I didn't really like any possible outcome of checking there.

Preflop is terrible; of all the spots to donk bet this probably isn't a great one. Probably one of the best results for us is for flop to check through and we turn a club.

baudib1 said:

Preflop is terrible; of all the spots to donk bet this probably isn't a great one. Probably one of the best results for us is for flop to check through and we turn a club.

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Why is pre-flop here so terrible? I admit it's not awesome.. but you fold that hand getting like 4 to 1 at a 6max table? Or do you 3-bet there? Telling me it's awful and then just leaving it at that really doesn't help...

And why is it not a good spot for the donk bet?

Creepy Jackalope said:

Why is pre-flop here so terrible? I admit it's not awesome.. but you fold that hand getting like 4 to 1 at a 6max table? Or do you 3-bet there? Telling me it's awful and then just leaving it at that really doesn't help...

And why is it not a good spot for the donk bet?

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Ahh didn't even mention preflop in my post. Yes preflop is pretty bad. UTG range is sooo sooo weighted toward big aces. So that makes it difficult when the flop comes down like AJ4 or something. Are you going to keep committing chips in the hand? Kinda just went on the assumption that we know its not great vs UTG range but what to do postflop now that we made that mistake. And no I am NEVER 3betting a weak ace here vs UTG, thats just burning money.

I still feel the donk bet is ok though. But as I said in my first post, it has to be with the intention of bet/folding.

Blobweird123 said:

Ahh didn't even mention preflop in my post. Yes preflop is pretty bad. UTG range is sooo sooo weighted toward big aces. So that makes it difficult when the flop comes down like AJ4 or something. Are you going to keep committing chips in the hand? Kinda just went on the assumption that we know its not great vs UTG range but what to do postflop now that we made that mistake. And no I am NEVER 3betting a weak ace here vs UTG, thats just burning money.
.

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For sure 3-betting is no good..

And I agree UTG here has big aces in his range.. but given that he's big stacked like that and I'm getting 4 to 1 I'm seeing a flop. Folding is definitely ok here I think though. I'm not arguing against that.

That's why I liked the donk bet.. let's me know where I'm at some of the time.

Creepy Jackalope said:

For sure 3-betting is no good..

And I agree UTG here has big aces in his range.. but given that he's big stacked like that and I'm getting 4 to 1 I'm seeing a flop. Folding is definitely ok here I think though. I'm not arguing against that.

That's why I liked the donk bet.. let's me know where I'm at some of the time.

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Actually I didn't even look at his stats. This is an easy easy fold pre. He opens 12.5%. So his UTG range is probably around 6%. Which looks something like 99+/AQo+/AJs+/KQs+. Do you think A8o does very well vs this range out of position?

---------equity---win----tie
Hand 0: 71.985% 70.70% 01.29% { 99+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 28.015% 26.73% 01.29% { A8o }

So yeah 4 to 1 sure you might breakeven here in the long run though doubtful, but now factor in CO's wide range and you're even farther behind.

Blobweird123 said:

Actually I didn't even look at his stats. This is an easy easy fold pre. He opens 12.5%. So his UTG range is probably around 6%. Which looks something like 99+/AQo+/AJs+/KQs+. Do you think A8o does very well vs this range out of position?

---------equity---win----tie
Hand 0: 71.985% 70.70% 01.29% { 99+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 28.015% 26.73% 01.29% { A8o }

So yeah 4 to 1 sure you might breakeven here in the long run though doubtful, but now factor in CO's wide range and you're even farther behind.

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For sure I'm folding out of this hand more often than not, I don't think it's an amazing spot.

But I consider their stack sizes. If I hit big I can get paid for the effort. That makes calling 4 cents into what will be a 19 cent pot worth it from my point of view.

Granted that's who I land myself in these situations from time to time. But that's poker too the way I see it....

Like I said.. I think folding is ok here too.. but I think folding here every time is a bit nitty..

Creepy Jackalope said:

For sure I'm folding out of this hand more often than not, I don't think it's an amazing spot.

But I consider their stack sizes. If I hit big I can get paid for the effort. That makes calling 4 cents into what will be a 19 cent pot worth it from my point of view.

Granted that's who I land myself in these situations from time to time. But that's poker too the way I see it....

Like I said.. I think folding is ok here too.. but I think folding here every time is a bit nitty..

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Not in the slightest. Folding here every time is standard.

I notice that in those stakes people will bet odd amounts on a bluff. I dont play cash tables but in sit and goes if the pot is like 900 chips and they throw out like 643 I would be more likely to call if I had something. I dont think he hit the queen unless he missed flush but paired queens instead...but I dont think I would have ever bet out even with a nice but vulnerable flop. I think he was aware that you had 8s by doing that

aircasar9876 said:

I dont think I would have ever bet out even with a nice but vulnerable flop. I think he was aware that you had 8s by doing that

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That flop puts 3 sets and straight draws in my flatting range pre. Flush draw too. The turn card makes it even more ugly so I bet strong there.

My thinking was that checking that flop has no good results for me. I don't like calling a bet and I don't want to give a free card for AJ or whatever to hit. I expected a re-raise by strong hands and then I'd know where I stood with that.

I don't think checking here is super bad really.. but it's giving up. That may be the optimal play, not sure. But I like giving up on the flop better than I do folding pre every single time.

I only bet out monsters if im in the blind. like 56 and flop comes 559, then I bet. I seem to double up playing like that and rarely get walks. I would probably of check raised otherwise check called it down.. would have made the pot smaller and easier to try to pick off a bluff. he could have just called you with air on the flop because he knows a big card scares you.

aircasar9876 said:

I only bet out monsters if im in the blind. like 56 and flop comes 559, then I bet. I seem to double up playing like that .

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This is why I call pre.. the 2 others had full stacks... gotta try at least sometimes. I think folding here every single time is exploitable?.....

Preflop is absolutely horrendous, if you don't get that part then you need a lot of work. You are out of position with a hand that cannot flop anything. For proof -- look at this hand history, where you get a miracle flop (rest assured you hit a 3-outer vs. UTG) and still don't know what to do.

If you end up playing for stacks with this hand you are going to be getting it in bad.

Worrying about UTG hitting a 3-outer on you should be the least of your worries.

CJ, you remind me of me a while back in some aspects never accept answers without explanations and you will be fine long term.

That being said, I dislike flatting with A8o.

Try creating flatting ranges from the blinds, I don't play 6-max but suited Aces (few % added equity and ability to semibluff draws), SCs (ditto), pairs, suited Broadways and big Aces can all be candidates, although some of these you also 3bet.

LD1977 said:

CJ, you remind me of me a while back in some aspects never accept answers without explanations and you will be fine long term.

That being said, I dislike flatting with A8o.

Try creating flatting ranges from the blinds, I don't play 6-max but suited Aces (few % added equity and ability to semibluff draws), SCs (ditto), pairs, suited Broadways and big Aces can all be candidates, although some of these you also 3bet.

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Thanks.

Ya I try to get input from lots of different sources, and I constantly remember that there is often no right answer.. just opinions. Experienced opinions and different approaches are what I really value. I'm not afraid to experiment a little. People that state things matter-of-factly, especially with hostile tone I just kind of chuckle at lol.

This is the type of hand I am starting to like posting. Gets some conversation going.

That's why you shouldn't of donked out on the flop, as when bigger cards come out on the turn and river you don't know what to do. But since this is 0.02/0.04 I notice that people tend to call with anything on streets.... anything. He could have kq or aq, even qj, but if you are giving this guy credit for not being a donk then i would just check and let him bluff at it. He might've just missed a draw, the only time hes value betting is if he hit a queen but its unlikely he has one. Betting here achieves nothing as the way the hand has played out, theres not much he would call with unless hes incredibly loose and raises UTG with like A6, anyways the better option is to check

baudib1 said:

Preflop is absolutely horrendous, if you don't get that part then you need a lot of work. You are out of position with a hand that cannot flop anything. For proof -- look at this hand history, where you get a miracle flop (rest assured you hit a 3-outer vs. UTG) and still don't know what to do.

If you end up playing for stacks with this hand you are going to be getting it in bad.

Worrying about UTG hitting a 3-outer on you should be the least of your worries.

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"I didn't know what to do" with that flop?

My original post said I was happy with the donk bet. I also stated later in this thread that I was ok with check-giving up too.

Pre and on the flop I don't think playing it 100% the same, "standard" way every time is the best course of action.

My only questions were if I bet too much on the turn, as I was obviously going to have to fold to aggression there, and if there was a point to betting the river.

I'm always looking for opinions and thoughts.. but I don't value your tone from either of your posts at all. I'm not impressed by anyone in forums that tosses around insulting words like that.

So feel free to steer clear of my future threads. And good luck to you.

babydrago9 said:

That's why you shouldn't of donked out on the flop, as when bigger cards come out on the turn and river you don't know what to do. But since this is 0.02/0.04 I notice that people tend to call with anything on streets.... anything. He could have kq or aq, even qj, but if you are giving this guy credit for not being a donk then i would just check and let him bluff at it. He might've just missed a draw, the only time hes value betting is if he hit a queen but its unlikely he has one. Betting here achieves nothing as the way the hand has played out, theres not much he would call with unless hes incredibly loose and raises UTG with like A6, anyways the better option is to check

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Thanks.

The simple answer and the only one answer is fold pre when UTG raises. No matter what type of player he is. Fish, TAG nit. Always fold. You do not have implied odds. It is a dominated hand OOP.
You are asking for a plan postflop. But there is no plan here. There are no cards than can show on the flop that can give you the odds to continue the hand.
What you are wrinting there with streight draws are stories. The same i can say with the "If i hit big". You are OOP. You need quads of 8s and the opponent Aces so you can be payed big. If you are playing hands like that the HUD will show clearely that you are a fish.
PS.
To answer you . Check/fold is the best betsize on the turn.

swingro said:

The simple answer and the only one answer is fold pre when UTG raises. No matter what type of player he is. Fish, TAG nit. Always fold. You do not have implied odds. It is a dominated hand OOP.
You are asking for a plan postflop. But there is no plan here. There are no cards than can show on the flop that can give you the odds to continue the hand.
What you are wrinting there with streight draws are stories. The same i can say with the "If i hit big". You are OOP. You need quads of 8s and the opponent Aces so you can be payed big. If you are playing hands like that the HUD will show clearely that you are a fish.
PS.
To answer you . Check/fold is the best betsize on the turn.

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I understand the point you and many others are making. I don't think it's wrong. But I don't think it's the only course of action. I don't need quads.. trips or two pair (AA88) can extract a lot of value from an UTG open range.

And for the record.. UTG player was the fold on the flop.. so maybe the HUD isn't the answer to everything?

Saying that UTG folds flop is just being results oriented. I don't hate your postflop play as mich as others which I already said, but caling pre is a huge mistake whether you do it 1/1 times, 1/10, 1/100000. Its bad

Blobweird123 said:

Saying that UTG folds flop is just being results oriented. I don't hate your postflop play as mich as others which I already said, but caling pre is a huge mistake whether you do it 1/1 times, 1/10, 1/100000. Its bad

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Don't misunderstand my saying that about the UTG fold, I'm just using it as an example that you can't assume he's going to continue with his whole range on that flop. I did in fact put him on a strong opening range there, I don't know why others are assuming I didn't.

The way I saw this hand.. that flop doesn't connect with the UTG range. Of course pocket pairs are in his range. But I think it does connect with what my perceived calling range in the BB was. Hence the aggressiveness on my part. I'm not saying my play was ideal, but that was my logic at the time.

I'll even occasionally open-raise a hand like A8o UTG. Not often, but I do it. In the ago of HUD's and note taking I can't wonder if playing the same ABC game everybody else is the best line.

I have lots to work on no question. But that's where I am with it right now. I guess I'm just a little frustrated that the pre-flop call has taken over the discussion when that wasn't what I wanted feedback on.. but fair enough. I did get what I was looking for too I think.

Good discussion though for the most part.

Creepy Jackalope said:

Thanks.

Ya I try to get input from lots of different sources, and I constantly remember that there is often no right answer.. just opinions. Experienced opinions and different approaches are what I really value. I'm not afraid to experiment a little. People that state things matter-of-factly, especially with hostile tone I just kind of chuckle at lol.

This is the type of hand I am starting to like posting. Gets some conversation going.

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There are, in fact, right answers in poker. This is probably the biggest misconception new players have about the game.