$2 NLHE 6-max: $0.02 NLHE 6-Max: Nut flush on the turn checked OOP - lost street of value?

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Tobaer

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$2 NLHE 6-max: $0.02 NLHE 6-Max: Nut flush on the turn checked OOP - lost street of value?

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 172.5 BB (VPIP: 19.05, PFR: 2.38, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 46)
Hero (SB): 109 BB
BB: 104.5 BB (VPIP: 11.70, PFR: 7.45, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 96)
UTG: 67 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
MP: 64 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
CO: 56 BB (VPIP: 21.10, PFR: 10.09, 3Bet Preflop: 2.70, Hands: 113)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A<font color='red'>♥</font> 2<font color='red'>♥</font>

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, Hero calls 2.5 BB, BB calls 2 BB, UTG calls 2 BB

Flop: (15 BB, 5 players) 7<font color='red'>♥</font> 9<font color='black'>♠</font> 8<font color='red'>♥</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets 2 BB, BTN calls 2 BB, Hero calls 2 BB, BB calls 2 BB, fold

Turn: (23 BB, 4 players) 9<font color='red'>♥</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks, BTN checks

River: (23 BB, 4 players) 5<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero bets 18 BB, BB calls 18 BB, fold, fold,

Did I loose a street of value here? should I have bet the turn and not tried to set a trap?
 
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kozong

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why not start betting the flop 5bb, seems reasonable

checking the turn (or keep betting 1/3 pot) & value bet the river
 
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seventhsense

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why not start betting the flop 5bb, seems reasonable

checking the turn (or keep betting 1/3 pot) & value bet the river

When there are so many people in the pot, we have no FE. Betting draws with no FE isn't that useful unless we can guarantee we get paid a lot when we hit and that they aren't going to get it in before we hit. I would rather check/call here because I think the pot gets built big enough with so many players in it.

Definitely lead the turn and then jam the river.
 
Vini_lepoker

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I don't like the call preflop, either squeeze or fold, even if you do hit the flush draw (like you did) it's going to be hard to extract having no position and playing such a small pot. Also remember the late position ranges are very wide, it's hard to find something that will pay you off.
 
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seventhsense

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I don't like the call preflop, either squeeze or fold, even if you do hit the flush draw (like you did) it's going to be hard to extract having no position and playing such a small pot. Also remember the late position ranges are very wide, it's hard to find something that will pay you off.

I disagree with this. A2 suited is fine for playing in multiway pots. At 2nl we will get paid off more than often enough.
 
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Lets say that considering the history that I hat with the player at the CO, his raise seemed to be strong (10% PFR). The call there wasn’t very good. Not too bad considering that I had 3:1 pot odds but not great. the only other option is fold. leading out with a reraise OOP is a bit too risky.

On the flop I had only a drawing hand and I was the first to act. In my opinion leading out here is not a good idea with 4 more players to act behind me because on those limits the allin guy in behind the corner.

What I really wanted to point out is the play that I made after the turn.

Is it profitable to check the turn when you hit the nuts and you are OOP with just one more street of action? is the way i played better (check the turn even if it gets checked after as it did) considering that the only hands that is calling is another flush? if there were someone with the strait he can lay it down.
 
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Pre-flop: So, UTG limps, we have no reads on him. A standard range of small pairs, suited connectors, small suited aces and weaker suited broadway cards is standard here. 22-77, 54s+, JTs, QJs, QTs, A2s-A5s.
CO raises, it looks like he's trying to isolate the limper, so potentially his range could be slightly wider than usual. He's pretty passive though, so I doubt he's spazzing out with trash here. 44+, ATo+, A2s+, KTo+, K9s+, QJo, Q9s+, J9s+, T9o seems like a reasonable range for the CO.
The BTN calls, which probably means he has a hand that flops fairly well, and wants to see a multi-way pot IP. Could also have a strong, but not premium holding which he doesn't want to 3-bet against 2 players. Something like 88-JJ, AQo, AJs-AQs, KJs, QJs, 65s.
For us, in the SB with 3 other players in already, this is a clear flat. Seeing as a raise (unless it's abnormally large, but then we're risking too many chips on a bluff) isn't likely to push all three players out, we shouldn't do that.
The BB is going to flat with mainly with hands that play well multi-way, and quite wide because the price he's getting is good. 22-88, AQo, A4s-A5s, A8s-ATs, KQo, KTs, QTs, J9s-JTs, 54s-98s, 53s-86s. That seems like a reasonable sort of range to give him. He's getting good odds, but he's very tight so I don't think he's calling that wide.
Took a while, but those should be roughly what we can expect the ranges of all our opponents to look like here.


Flop: Now, the CO bets super-small when action is checked to him. From the stats we have, and the fact he's short stacked, he looks like a fairly weak-passive fish, who plays pretty fit/fold. From this, his weak bet is either a weak draw or a marginal made hand. We should flat here, because we want more players to stay in the pot, because if we make our flush we'll have better implied odds. We're also being given amazing odds to draw to our flush, so no need to semi-bluff here.


Turn: So, we go 4-way to the turn, and make our flush. We pretty much have the nuts, any hand that turned a boat would surely have raised the flop. Against so many players, trapping is rarely optimal. If we stick a decent sized bet out there, the chances that one of the players will have something he can call with are significantly higher than in a HU pot. I'm betting between 15-17BB. As it is, it checks round, and it's clear no one has much of anything unless they've been slow-playing. Ranges for all players are capped at a weak 9x who got scared of the flush draw coming in, but even that would have bet, I'd have thought (although the BB could have this because he's a nit).


River: Now you have to stick a bet out, and since you've disguised your hand, I'd make it a big one. The line you've taken could be a bluff, since no one has showed strength. I'd also stick out 18-20BB.

So, to answer your question again, betting the turn is better here, yes.
 
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ChrisMurray

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I don't like the call preflop, either squeeze or fold, even if you do hit the flush draw (like you did) it's going to be hard to extract having no position and playing such a small pot. Also remember the late position ranges are very wide, it's hard to find something that will pay you off.

I disagree. Calling here is standard. We're going to have to put way too many chips at risk to bluff-squeeze here due to the number of players in the pot. Chances are, one of them at least will call. bluffing 3 players is generally not a good idea when they all clearly have something they want to see a flop with. Being OOP is a disadvantage, but due to so many players being in the pot we'll get paid often enough when we hit a big hand.
 
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Lets say that considering the history that I hat with the player at the CO, his raise seemed to be strong (10% PFR). The call there wasn’t very good. Not too bad considering that I had 3:1 pot odds but not great. the only other option is fold. leading out with a reraise OOP is a bit too risky.

On the flop I had only a drawing hand and I was the first to act. In my opinion leading out here is not a good idea with 4 more players to act behind me because on those limits the allin guy in behind the corner.

What I really wanted to point out is the play that I made after the turn.

Is it profitable to check the turn when you hit the nuts and you are OOP with just one more street of action? is the way i played better (check the turn even if it gets checked after as it did) considering that the only hands that is calling is another flush? if there were someone with the strait he can lay it down.


I doubt anyone is laying down a straight after such passivity is show by everyone on the flop. I doubt players are even folding 9x here to be honest.
 
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Thanks to everyone for your responses and thanks to ChrisMurray for the in depth analysis. I have been thinking a lot at this hand and didn't know if it was the right play. in that spot maybe betting the turn was a better thing to do.

have a nice day everyone:cool:
 
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ChrisMurray

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Thanks to everyone for your responses and thanks to ChrisMurray for the in depth analysis. I have been thinking a lot at this hand and didn't know if it was the right play. in that spot maybe betting the turn was a better thing to do.

have a nice day everyone:cool:

Happy to help. Have a good day too and good luck at the tables.
 
Aces2w1n

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i like the flat pre... if we squeeze we get rid of the hands we dominate.

we should def check raise flop

lead turn

then get stacks in or at least a decent size bet... sometimes a small bs bet can induce smaller flushes to go crai but i think big bet is best no one seems overly aggressive and calling stations... take contrl
 
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ChrisMurray

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i like the flat pre... if we squeeze we get rid of the hands we dominate.

we should def check raise flop

lead turn

then get stacks in or at least a decent size bet... sometimes a small bs bet can induce smaller flushes to go crai but i think big bet is best no one seems overly aggressive and calling stations... take contrl

I like the turn lead and the idea of betting big on later streets.

Would like to know what your think the merits of C/R the flop are though, I personally can't see many.
 
Aces2w1n

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I like the turn lead and the idea of betting big on later streets.

Would like to know what your think the merits of C/R the flop are though, I personally can't see many.


we have a big draw... so we want to create a massive pot with a lot of people in the hand. And we are drawing to the nuts which is always great!
 
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we have a big draw... so we want to create a massive pot with a lot of people in the hand. And we are drawing to the nuts which is always great!

That's very true.. But we have very little fold equity and raising will cost us a lot more when we don't hit (most of the time). Is it not better to wait to inflate the pot when you've actually hit your hand?

Besides, as you've pointed out, having a lot of people in the hand is great. If we raise, we're likely going to push some of them out.

Sometimes it's better to play big draws passively, and one of those times is often in multi-way pots (or against strong ranges) because when you semi-bluff with a draw (even if it is to the nuts) it's still not profitable unless you have a decent chunk of fold equity.
 
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I would have bet the flop only if I were in position and if I were the pre flop raiser, as a c-bet. if as a pre flop aggressor someone would have donk bet the flop I would have just called. without position and that many players in the pot it is not profitable to lead and bet a draw. the reason is simple. how many times are you going to complete your flush? is this kind of play going to be profitable in the long run? you also have to consider that at those limits player are going allin with only a pair. I am not ok with risking my stack with just a draw.
 
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